Orion vs Thanos in pure h2h brawl

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Who exactly are you referring to?

You need to re-read that fight and the thread title.

I was talking about Desaads post, I know that Thanos used plasma fists to power up his blow against Thor way back in the great Starlin era.

That being said, Thanos has since gotten several upgrades from Lady Death, and is far more powerful now if written correctly, than he was then.

Orion is just not in the same class as Thanos in any way shape or form. I'd actually place Orion two solid levels below Thanos.

If you thought about it, Thanos can't be such a bad fighter if he could take it to Thor and, the Thing with ease can he?

Originally posted by Stoic
[B]Using Gamora to show how well Thanos can handle himself in a hand to hand battle, isn't the best way to figure out how well he'd do against Orion. Gamora dealt with many able combatants in the Infinity Crusade series (and sub series), making some of the best look as if they were moving in slow motion. Shyt! Gamora would do the same dance on Orion if they sparred (they were playing the fight was not serious).

A few things...Gamora's effectiveness waivers from showing to showing, drastically. She's been wholly ineffective against The Thing and stalemated Wolverine (before getting distracted) during the very event that you cite (Infinity Crusade).

Secondly, Orion is probably the best high level martial artist DC has (when I say high level, I'm referring to power level...as in top tier), and has demonstrated the kind of speed and skill that Gamora could really only dream about, IMHO. I'd say they are probably pretty comparable in those areas, overall, if only because she does so more consistently but certain of his showings are extremely impressive in this regard. Certainly they are close enough that in any direct confrontation between the two he is going to dominate, and dominate badly, based on comparable levels of skill and speed and far greater levels of...everything else.

Finally, the fight most certainly WAS serious, in so far as they were guaging each other's abilities and not holding back, as demonstrated by the interaction between the two and Drax ("Does that answer your question?"😉. No, they weren't highly motivated by any means, and so that is going to change things, but this was about what one would expect from most battles that these two would be in. Certainly there is no reason to assume that Thanos was holding back anything, especially given the Drax aside which was clearly meant to indicate that they weren't just 'playing' around.

I have a hard time seeing Orion "handle Classic Thor and the Thing," like they were paperweights, yet a weaker incarnation of Thanos tossed them around like ninety nine pound weaklings, even one shotting the Thing whom even the Champion was unable to muster with multiple combos.

We're talking about different types of fights here, though. Thor and Thing charged Thanos stupidly and got taken out stupidly. There was no deep hand to hand fight there.

We've already seen that Thanos is weak against savvy hand to hand physical fighters with even low level combat speed. He's never faced anyone like Orion in that regard.

And of course, insane Thor from Blood and Thunder was able to give Thanos a fine fight, and the narrator even went so far as to say that he would give him a decent fight under normal conditions.

Originally posted by Desaad
A few things...Gamora's effectiveness waivers from showing to showing, drastically. She's been wholly ineffective against The Thing and stalemated Wolverine (before getting distracted) during the very event that you cite (Infinity Crusade).

Secondly, Orion is probably the best high level martial artist DC has (when I say high level, I'm referring to power level...as in top tier), and has demonstrated the kind of speed and skill that Gamora could really only dream about, IMHO. I'd say they are probably pretty comparable in those areas, overall, if only because she does so more consistently but certain of his showings are extremely impressive in this regard. Certainly they are close enough that in any direct confrontation between the two he is going to dominate, and dominate badly, based on comparable levels of skill and speed and far greater levels of...everything else.

Finally, the fight most certainly WAS serious, in so far as they were guaging each other's abilities and not holding back, as demonstrated by the interaction between the two and Drax ("Does that answer your question?"😉. No, they weren't highly motivated by any means, and so that is going to change things, but this was about what one would expect from most battles that these two would be in. Certainly there is no reason to assume that Thanos was holding back anything, especially given the Drax aside which was clearly meant to indicate that they weren't just 'playing' around.

We're talking about different types of fights here, though. Thor and Thing charged Thanos stupidly and got taken out stupidly. There was no deep hand to hand fight there.

We've already seen that Thanos is weak against savvy hand to hand physical fighters with even low level combat speed. He's never faced anyone like Orion in that regard.

And of course, insane Thor from Blood and Thunder was able to give Thanos a fine fight, and the narrator even went so far as to say that he would give him a decent fight under normal conditions.

Great post, my thing here is that Thor can split mountain ranges with his hammer with ease, yet he was unable to even move Thanos with it. Like I pointed out before, Thanos in those days was far weaker than he is now due to various upgrades given by Lady Death.

Back to Thor hitting Thanos with his hammer; are we to believe that Thor was pulling his punches against a guy that he witnessed one shot the Thing, or should we go with Thor realizing that Thanos was badass enough to cut loose on after witnessing such and such? I'm going with option 2.

My point is do you believe that Orion can hit harder than Thor does with Mjolnir using only his bare hands as this thread suggests? Thanos wasn't fazed by Thors blow, should we believe that Orion with only his fists can hurt or daze a guy that can take the pressures of a black hole, and come out with a few scratches and cuts? Do you believe that Thanos lacks the power to hurt Orion after witnessing the beating that he gave the Silver Surfer with his bare hands?

I won't ignore or pretend to skate around valid points that you made or, the fact that Orion may be a better fighter than Thanos, and may duck, and parry many blows thrown by Thanos, but let's also keep in mind that Orion doesn't possess a spider sense, and isn't a precog but, wait the Surfer can dodge meteor storms while travelling at ftl speeds because of his cosmic awareness. See what I'm getting at?

Lets say Orion dances around Thanos with superior martial arts skills, it would be only a matter of time before he got hit and, he will be hit by Thanos, should this happen, it is my honest belief that Orion would be in a mess of trouble and, left unable to retaliate as the battle continued.

Orion would be coming into this battle lacking the power to finish his opponent. Thanos would not.

Originally posted by Stoic
I was talking about Desaads post, I know that Thanos used plasma fists to power up his blow against Thor way back in the great Starlin era

I meant, what combatants were you referring to in regards to Gamora easily dancing around them.

Originally posted by Stoic
That being said, Thanos has since gotten several upgrades from Lady Death, and is far more powerful now if written correctly, than he was then.

Since Gamora danced around him?

Originally posted by Stoic
Orion is just not in the same class as Thanos in any way shape or form. I'd actually place Orion two solid levels below Thanos.

Not really.

Originally posted by Stoic
If you thought about it, Thanos can't be such a bad fighter if he could take it to Thor and, the Thing with ease can he?

Like I said, you need to re-read that fight.

Originally posted by Stoic
Great post, my thing here is that Thor can split mountain ranges with his hammer with ease, yet he was unable to even move Thanos with it. Like I pointed out before, Thanos in those days was far weaker than he is now due to various upgrades given by Lady Death.

Back to Thor hitting Thanos with his hammer; are we to believe that Thor was pulling his punches against a guy that he witnessed one shot the Thing, or should we go with Thor realizing that Thanos was badass enough to cut loose on after witnessing such and such? I'm going with option 2.

My point is do you believe that Orion can hit harder than Thor does with Mjolnir using only his bare hands as this thread suggests? Thanos wasn't fazed by Thors blow, should we believe that Orion with only his fists can hurt or daze a guy that can take the pressures of a black hole, and come out with a few scratches and cuts? Do you believe that Thanos lacks the power to hurt Orion after witnessing the beating that he gave the Silver Surfer with his bare hands?

I won't ignore or pretend to skate around valid points that you made or, the fact that Orion may be a better fighter than Thanos, and may duck, and parry many blows thrown by Thanos, but let's also keep in mind that Orion doesn't possess a spider sense, and isn't a precog but, wait the Surfer can dodge meteor storms while travelling at ftl speeds because of his cosmic awareness. See what I'm getting at?

Lets say Orion dances around Thanos with superior martial arts skills, it would be only a matter of time before he got hit and, he will be hit by Thanos, should this happen, it is my honest belief that Orion would be in a mess of trouble and, left unable to retaliate as the battle continued.

Orion would be coming into this battle lacking the power to finish his opponent. Thanos would not.

Orion's not going to go down if Thanos hits him once or twice, he's not the Thing, he's far more powerful. We're talking about the Dog of War, a guy who fights for days on end against Kalibak and who beat Darkseid in h/h by ripping his heart out.

Orion most likely would give Thanos the fight of his life, though Thanos would probably win in the end.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I meant, what combatants were you referring to in regards to Gamora easily dancing around them.

Since Gamora danced around him?

Not really.

Like I said, you need to re-read that fight.

Do you recall The Infinity Crusade? Do you remember Gamora using a technique to put the Thing down, and various others. Granted there were a few that she snuck up on, but had they knew that she was going to attack, it is my belief that they would have still met a similar defeat.

This isn't about Gamora, it's about Orion vs Thanos, and how in the world would Orion hurt Thanos with his fists, when Thor was unable to faze him with the hammer. Do you believe that Orion can hit harder than Thor does with his hammer, using only his fists?

I don't need to re-read the book again, Thor and Thanos squared up, and Thor was losing. Of course as I said earlier, Thanos was amping his attacks by using plasma fists to hit thor with. I'm talking about damage soak here though and how i would find it pretty peculiar that Orion could faze Thanos when Thor could not, and the slight fact that Thanos has become more powerful than he was nearly 30 years ago. You see my point?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Funny thing is, that Orion has dazed a guy (Superman) who survived a [b]double black hole without any real damage.

Orion's not going to go down if Thanos hits him once or twice, he's not the Thing, he's far more powerful. We're talking about the Dog of War, a guy who fights for days on end against Kalibak and who beat Darkseid in h/h by ripping his heart out.

Orion most likely would give Thanos the fight of his life, though Thanos would probably win in the end. [/B]

I really hate using Superman to determine things such as this because we all saw him die by Doomsdays hands, and he was only hit by a blow that blew out a few windows. This is a far cry from someone capable of surviving a double black hole don't you think?

How about a more recent incident when Major Force punched him a few states away effectively knocking him out, and landing in a baseball field... Double black hole huh? I say bad writing with a strong shot of CIS/PIS.

Originally posted by Stoic
I really hate using Superman to determine things such as this because we all saw him die by Doomsdays hands, and he was only hit by a blow that blew out a few windows. This is a far cry from someone capable of surviving a double black hole don't you think?

How about a more recent incident when Major Force punched him a few states away effectively knocking him out, and landing in a baseball field... Double black hole huh? I say bad writing with a strong shot of CIS/PIS.

Any time any character survives a Black Hole without having some kind of magical or reality warping power its bad writing, including the Thanos showing. You can't cherry pick which black hole showings are kosher and which aren't.

Originally posted by Stoic
Do you recall The Infinity Crusade? Do you remember Gamora using a technique to put the Thing down, and various others. Granted there were a few that she snuck up on, but had they knew that she was going to attack, it is my belief that they would have still met a similar defeat.

I'm asking you specifically because I don't remember. Infinity Crusade was a shitty event that I had to force myself to read.

I'll take your word for those encounters.

Originally posted by Stoic
This isn't about Gamora, it's about Orion vs Thanos, and how in the world would Orion hurt Thanos with his fists, when Thor was unable to faze him with the hammer. Do you believe that Orion can hit harder than Thor does with his hammer, using only his fists?

When has Thor been unable to phase Thanos with his strikes?

Originally posted by Stoic
I don't need to re-read the book again, Thor and Thanos squared up, and Thor was losing. Of course as I said earlier, Thanos was amping his attacks by using plasma fists to hit thor with. I'm talking about damage soak here though and how i would find it pretty peculiar that Orion could faze Thanos when Thor could not, and the slight fact that Thanos has become more powerful than he was nearly 30 years ago. You see my point?

Like I said, you need to re-read that book again. Especially based on how you described it in your last few posts. You were previously spouting things like Thanos taking the two on like they were paperweights and other shit.

Thor was never losing when he squared up with Thanos. In the previous issue he stalemated him. When he and Thing engaged Thanos, the Thing tried -and failed- to restrain Thanos while he and Thor were going toe to toe. Then Thing and Thor together put Thanos on his ass. It was mostly Thor because the Thing couldn't even phase Thanos with his attacks earlier.

The closest Thor came to losing against Thanos in a physical confrontation in that issue was when he dived at Thanos, and while Thor was in midair, Thanos flipped him over. Which did absolutely nothing.

Re-read that issue. Preferably twice.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
DOS Superman was much weaker, also just because the blow didn't outright destroy the Earth didn't mean it wasn't an incredibly powerful blow.

Any time any character survives a Black Hole without having some kind of magical or reality warping power its bad writing, including the Thanos showing. You can't cherry pick which black hole showings are kosher and which aren't.

Let me get this straight, do you believe that Orion has the goods to hurt a guy that Thor was unable to faze with Mjolnir while, using his bare fists?

DOS Superman was indeed weaker than current Superman... well according to many posters on KMC (don't know if I want to subscribe to this opinion). How about the Major Force debacle? You know the one that he punches Superman across two or three states effectively knocking him out? This would indeed be a mighty blow, but a black hole? Now this is a beast of another color. Do you agree with me?

I have a thought, maybe one black hole negated the power of the other, and it was less powerful than Major Forces blow? Perhaps it was a weak as a spring breeze? I'll take my no prize now.

We're off topic Omega, Thanos has shown time and again that he has the damage soak to literally laugh off an assault from Orion's bare fists.
This is all that would matter in a battle with the two of these guys. It's not like Orion would be fighting a turtle now, Thanos was able to tag a previous herald of Galactus while he was moving at near light speeds.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm asking you specifically because I don't remember. Infinity Crusade was a shitty event that I had to force myself to read.

I'll take your word for those encounters.

When has Thor been unable to phase Thanos with his strikes?

Like I said, you need to re-read that book again. Especially based on how you described it in your last few posts. You were previously spouting things like Thanos taking the two on like they were paperweights and other shit.

Thor was never losing when he squared up with Thanos. In the previous issue he stalemated him. When he and Thing engaged Thanos, the Thing tried -and failed- to restrain Thanos while he and Thor were going toe to toe. Then Thing and Thor together put Thanos on his ass. It was mostly Thor because the Thing couldn't even phase Thanos with his attacks earlier.

The closest Thor came to losing against Thanos in a physical confrontation in that issue was when he dived at Thanos, and while Thor was in midair, Thanos flipped him over. Which did absolutely nothing.

Re-read that issue. Preferably twice.

LOL, Thor was getting his face blasted off, and again that was Thanos of nearly 30 years ago. Thor was unable to move Thanos with his first volley iirc. Thanos wanted to be knocked away by the louts as he pointed out so that he could finish pimping them. Spidey shows up and derails Thanos' pimp hand, and Warlock turns Thanos to stone.

My point is this, Thanos of today if written by adept writers would be unfazed by Orion's bare fisted assaults, if we take into consideration that Lady Death upgraded him a few times since then (when Thor was unable to hurt him using Mjolnir). Do you think that Orion would beat Thanos? Anyways I have to go study.

Originally posted by Stoic
LOL, Thor was getting his face blasted off, and again that was Thanos of nearly 30 years ago. Thor was unable to move Thanos with his first volley iirc. Thanos wanted to be knocked away by the louts as he pointed out so that he could finish pimping them. Spidey shows up and derails Thanos' pimp hand, and Warlock turns Thanos to stone.

My point is this, Thanos of today if written by adept writers would be unfazed by Orion's bare fisted assaults, if we take into consideration that Lady Death upgraded him a few times since then (when Thor was unable to hurt him using Mjolnir). Do you think that Orion would beat Thanos? Anyways I have to go study.

facepalm

You should have gone and re-read the issue like I told you to.

Thanos blasted Thor twice and stated that more blasts would eventually put him down like the Thing. We eventually see them again, and Thor is on one knee -or maybe both- and gets up in moments. If in your world, that's Thor getting his face blasted off, then that's fine. What do you mean unable to move him with his first volley? If you're thinking about the first punch Thor threw, you might as well count the blow from Thanos not apparently budging Thor either. Haha yea, he wanted to be knocked away.

No he wouldn't.

Upgraded him a few times? He was upgraded during his resurrection etc. and maybe once more. That's about it.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
facepalm

You should have gone and re-read the issue like I told you to.

Thanos blasted Thor twice and stated that more blasts would eventually put him down like the Thing. We eventually see them again, and Thor is on one knee -or maybe both- and gets up in moments. If in your world, that's Thor getting his face blasted off, then that's fine. What do you mean unable to move him with his first volley? If you're thinking about the first punch Thor threw, you might as well count the blow from Thanos not apparently budging Thor either. Haha yea, he wanted to be knocked away.

No he wouldn't.

Upgraded him a few times? He was upgraded during his resurrection etc. and maybe once more. That's about it.

Rage, I get it you also make very valid points, but Thor has a very deadly weapon in tow when he does battle. Thor hits harder with Mjolnir than he would with his bare fists... right? Are you saying that Orion hits harder than Thor does when he's hitting baddies with the mallet with only his fists?

My point is this, and let's take Thor, and the Thing vs Thanos out of the eqaution for a sec. Thanos was hit by Thor in warrior madness mode while in possession of the power gem, and was not turned to jelly.

How is Orion going to hurt Thanos who was able to weather that shit storm? I just don't think that Orion has the potency to do more than tickle Thanos when looking at it in these terms, and from this perspective.

Thanos took hell from Odins magics, and was still able to continue to rise to the occassion, I'm talking body armor, and Orion lacks the power to do anything other than get shit stomped by the Titan.

I'm not part of the Thanos fan to the end club, but c'mon give credit where it's due. Thanos is a bad dude, too bad for Orion.

Originally posted by Stoic
Rage, I get it you also make very valid points, but Thor has a very deadly weapon in tow when he does battle. Thor hits harder with Mjolnir than he would with his bare fists... right? Are you saying that Orion hits harder than Thor does when he's hitting baddies with the mallet with only his fists?

Not for the most part, no. Usually when he has energy covering Mjolnir or at least charges Mjolnir, he strikes harder but under Starlin from what I've seen, that isn't the case. At least not always. The Drax fight really solidified that for me. There was no actual difference between a punch from Thor, or a hit from Mjolnir, or a hit from a charged Mjolnir that I could see. I guess he does it for artistic flare. That seems to be the case with modern creators as well. There was even lightning radiating from Thor's fist the last time I recall him punching an opponent.

Don't put words in my mouth.

Originally posted by Stoic
My point is this, and let's take Thor, and the Thing vs Thanos out of the eqaution for a sec. Thanos was hit by Thor in warrior madness mode while in possession of the power gem, and was not turned to jelly.

At least you finally gave up using that fight as evidence.

He was not in Warrior Madness. The Gem should have given him some boost in strength. Good showing for Thanos but since I think Thanos should have the edge against Thor in strength usually, and it was stated Thor would give him a good fight any day in that same issue, I'm perfectly fine with it.

Originally posted by Stoic
How is Orion going to hurt Thanos who was able to weather that shit storm? I just don't think that Orion has the potency to do more than tickle Thanos when looking at it in these terms, and from this perspective.

Orion can affect Thanos with his attack. He is however not going to put him down. At least not in a contest of raw strength vs. raw strength. I never argued that he would either.

Originally posted by Stoic
Thanos took hell from Odins magics, and was still able to continue to rise to the occassion, I'm talking body armor, and Orion lacks the power to do anything other than get shit stomped by the Titan.

Thor's done about as much. Not true. Orion would do a lot better than most people think. Especially if he relies on his fighting skills. He would get beat down in a straight up contest.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'm not part of the Thanos fan to the end club, but c'mon give credit where it's due. Thanos is a bad dude, too bad for Orion.

Fair enough I guess.

Originally posted by Stoic
Great post, my thing here is that Thor can split mountain ranges with his hammer with ease, yet he was unable to even move Thanos with it. Like I pointed out before, Thanos in those days was far weaker than he is now due to various upgrades given by Lady Death

Thanks!

I feel what you're saying, but the big cheese feats don't necessarily mean much in relation to the effectiveness of 1v1 attacks in comics. Like, is one really to believe that Surfer can survive the crushing pressures of a black hole, but a hammer blow knocks him out? Same deal for any characters like that -- if Black Holes aren't knocking out Superman and Green Lantern (and GL's are creating constructs to seal them, no less!), what should realistically be able to hurt them through their shields? Nothing.

Thor HAS hurt Thanos while he had the Infinity Gauntlet, and actually seemed to be getting the better of that direct physical confrontation, until Thanos used the gauntlet to turn him into blocks, lol. And again in Blood and Thunder Thor (powered up, but to what degree we don't know -- he was only tapping into the gem unconsciously, remember, and when Drax was doing this it only made him ON PAR with Professor Hulk in strength) he was able to draw blood and basically it seemed as though Thanos wouldn't have been able to take him out straight up, or at least not very quickly.

He's also been knocked out/stunned by some random energy blaster. Hurting him is definitely difficult, but it's not impossible.

Also, I should mention that I'm talking about 'classic' Thanos, not the current version. I haven't seen enough of him to really be able to gauge what level he's on, overall. So basically I'm talking about the Thanos before he died in Annihilation. So far as I know, his power was increased by Death upon his resurrection, but that is the only real power up he got. (I've heard people say that he got one after The End, but that's a large logical leap to make given what was presented, that he had granted himself a few 'life assuring wishes' such as the return of his fleet of ships).

Back to Thor hitting Thanos with his hammer; are we to believe that Thor was pulling his punches against a guy that he witnessed one shot the Thing, or should we go with Thor realizing that Thanos was badass enough to cut loose on after witnessing such and such? I'm going with option 2.

I'm not going to try to rationalize what went on there, but ultimately (as I recall it) Thanos took like one real hammer shot and then started wailing on Thor with his eye beams (and as Rage has said, Thor took a number of those). In terms of real hand to hand, we didn't see a hell of a lot of that.

My point is do you believe that Orion can hit harder than Thor does with Mjolnir using only his bare hands as this thread suggests?

I think that, in comics, the difference is fairly negligible re; power of Thor's hammer vs power of Thor's fists. Superman caught it in JLA/Avengers, and took a number of blows from the hammer, without falling, for instance. I don't think it gives him a sizeable advantage in striking power over just his strength.

But more than that, it's the precision that I think would make the difference. Depending on which Orion we've got fighting here, martial arts is more than just brawling, it's about precise hits to inflict maximum damage. And while I don't think any ONE of Orion's blows is going to lay Thanos out, I think he's more than strong enough to wear him down with a number of hits, and I think he's more than fast/skilled enough to have the time to do so.

Thanos wasn't fazed by Thors blow, should we believe that Orion with only his fists can hurt or daze a guy that can take the pressures of a black hole, and come out with a few scratches and cuts?

It's interesting that you say this, because in point of fact we have SEEN Thor's hammer lay out a guy (the Silver Surfer) who has taken black holes FAR better than Thanos did. Thanos looked to be on his last legs, bleeding and pock marked, where as Surfer has fought in the center of one with no problem, and has even CREATED them.

Do you believe that Thanos lacks the power to hurt Orion after witnessing the beating that he gave the Silver Surfer with his bare hands?

No, absolutely not. Thanos is stronger than Orion, and more durable besides. But the dynamics of an Orion/Thanos fight are going to be very different than the dynamics of a Thanos/Silver Surfer fight. If Orion was as ineffective in hand to hand as the Surfer was, he'd absolutely lose to.

But, of course, Orion ISN'T.

but let's also keep in mind that Orion doesn't possess a spider sense, and isn't a precog but, wait the Surfer can dodge meteor storms while travelling at ftl speeds because of his cosmic awareness. See what I'm getting at?

And yet we've seen the Silver Surfer get pounded on, in terms of combat speed, by Spiderman or Midnight Sun (an old school Shang Chi foe). Clearly his combat speed is essentially normal in such situations. To the best of my knowledge, Thanos has ALWAYS performed poorly against characters with enhanced reflexes/combat super speed (the Runner, Gamora, Spiderman)...relative to how he SHOULD do, anyway.

Orion would be coming into this battle lacking the power to finish his opponent. Thanos would not.

Agree to disagree, even as I admit/agree that THanos would take the majority.

Originally posted by Desaad

And yet we've seen the Silver Surfer get pounded on, in terms of combat speed, by Spiderman or Midnight Sun (an old school Shang Chi foe).

This is a quite a comical falsehood which leaves out context and is simply flat out wrong. Surfer didnt get pounded in in terms of combat speed against either midnight sun nor spiderman. In all of his encounters with these opponents he was holding back immensely repeatedly warning his opponents to stop fighting him cuz he did not want to fight and even going to check on them when he thought he had hurt them. Heck in the spiderman fight he goes on monloguing oblivious to spiderman for a good portion of the fight and even has to save him at one point. When he grows tired of continuously warning them and telling them to stop and whatnot he makes quick work of them.

Fights in which surfer is holding back so much that he is actually trying actively to not engage his opponents cannot at all be used to make some sort of negative determination abou his combat speed.
Not even close....

??????????????????????????

Was Thanos ever shown to be in the black hole?

How are people saying Orion wins again?

I don't think anyone actually said that.