LOTF Kyp, Kyle and Corran vs RoT Bane and DoE Zannah

truejedi
what? Dooku knew Yoda was stronger. He TOLD Yoda that he (Dooku was stronger) but his inner monologue in DR makes it clear he knew Yoda was stronger. (thus the back-up plan).

Dooku is not an idiot. Had he known he was incapable of besting his master on even ground he wouldn't have risked his life and the Death Star plans in such a futile attempt, particularly given that he'd just fought through a pair of young, skilled Jedi Knights and knew a clone army had to be on its way.

If DR can be used as evidence of anything, it is this. Reckless courage isn't in his character.

truejedi
Malak knew Revan was stronger, and that was the reason he would only fight him on the star forge. (and perhaps revan wasn't A LOT stronger than Malak? Which is the only thing I claimed with Kyp and Luke)

Regardless, he believed that the Star Forge would make him strong enough to defeat Revan, and he was wrong. This establishes that he has a poor idea of the power gap between himself and Revan.

truejedi
Anakin was stronger in the force than Kenobi, no doubt.

Anakin
I'm more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him.

truejedi
And after his encounter with Luke, Jacen realized he wasn't near Luke's level, but he never outright stated (inner monologue of course) that he was stronger than Luke.

Either way, he is not a good judge of his own strength.

truejedi
Besides, i'm talking force only. It is repeatedly pointed out that Luke is a better swordsman than everyone else, including Kyp. your examples are all combat situations that involved sabers.

b.) Only one of these situations involves a combat situation that may have primarily involved sabers.

truejedi
My only point is that Kyp isn't super far off from luke in the force.

Originally posted by Eminence
You are aware that Dark Rendezvous takes place two and a half years after Attack of the Clones, yes? That prior to Attack of the Clones Dooku hadn't met Yoda in at least a decade? That he spent the years after his resignation from the Jedi Order studying under the Sith, gaining new and greater powers?

So you are saying Dooku changed his mind about his relative position to Yoda between AOTC and DR? I can accept that.

If DR can be used as evidence of anything, it is this. Reckless courage isn't in his character.

And yet he ran away in AOTC. So he wasn't being quite as reckless as you might suppose.

Malak can only conclusively be said to have known that Revan was more powerful than he'd been before; prior to the fight, he hadn't acknowledged that Revan was more powerful than he was.

Regardless, he believed that the Star Forge would make him strong enough to defeat Revan, and he was wrong. This establishes that he has a poor idea of the power gap between himself and Revan.

This is almost assurdly a combat situation however.

IIRC, Jacen believed he was the second most powerful man in the galaxy, and that he was strong enough to at least counter Luke's telekinetic assaults. The former would mean he is stronger than Durron, and the latter is demonstratably false, meaning either Durron is nowhere near as powerful as Luke circa LOTF or that Solo has an even poorer grasp of his own powers relative to those of his peers than we'd suspected.

Either way, he is not a good judge of his own strength.

This is true as well, and was the one example I pretty much countered myself in my original argument. Sith in general seem to overestimate themselves to be honest...

a.) Almost all combat situations involve sabers.

b.) Only one of these situations involves a combat situation that may have primarily involved sabers.

I misunderstood your Anakin example, since you were talking about Sidious instead of Kenobi, so you are (mostly) correct. The Revan Malak fight was probably a combat situation as well.

I'm not saying he is, but the reasoning behind your conclusion is erroneous. [/B]

acknowledged. Kyp's feelings on the matters hardly settle the matter.
so two more points on the matter for consideration:

1.He did have an easier time manipulating the Dovin Basil than Luke did.

2. The test that Luke did on Leia to test her Force potential merely "pushed back" against Luke. With Kyp, the same test resulted in Luke being thrown across the room into a wall.

None of these things are conclusive alone, but together, they are enough to form an opinion on. So when N said "Kyp is vaguely powerful at best." I was not incorrect to say "Kyp is more powerful than Luke, at best."

at best being the key words.

I'd like to point out that, because of the nebulous understanding of Mendelian Genetics by the authors (as well as the laws of such in governing Earth's biology, at least), it is by no means certain that Leia and Luke have identical potentials.

it is however, hardly out of the realm of imagination to suppose so.

Originally posted by Zampanó
it is by no means certain that Leia and Luke have identical potentials.

that is much too long an acronym. what does it mean?

Yeah it is...
Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.

haha. nice. can u quote the relevant passage just to settle it once and for all?

It's from Luke's perspective.
"One star like none of the others still swung through an orbit lower than his: a blue-white supergiant, far larger, far brighter than any his imagination had so far produced. This one did not feed upon his Force light, but shone with its own, as brilliant and powerful as his. It fell in a tightening tide-locked gyre down the black hole's gravity well, and as it fell the relentless pull of the void was stripping a huge jet of energy and mass from it, a fountain of star-stuff ripped from its heart and sucked down across the event horizon to vanish forever in dark beyond the Dark.

And he knew this star was Leia."

truejedi
So you are saying Dooku changed his mind about his relative position to Yoda between AOTC and DR?

truejedi
I can accept that.

truejedi
And yet he ran away in AOTC. So he wasn't being quite as reckless as you might suppose.

truejedi
This is almost assurdly a combat situation however.

truejedi
I misunderstood your Anakin example, since you were talking about Sidious instead of Kenobi, so you are (mostly) correct.

truejedi
The Revan Malak fight was probably a combat situation as well.

truejedi
acknowledged. Kyp's feelings on the matters hardly settle the matter.

the yoda/Dooku was definitly a combat situation as well.

The ensuing combat does not give or take credence from the assertion or the mindset in which it was made. Dooku believed himself to be more powerful than Yoda; the fact that he was about to fight him doesn't change that at all.