Prop 8 Overturned

Started by 7539 pages

Originally posted by Ushgarak
To be fair, you asked about the ceremony, not the person. You were referring to ceremonies of purely decorative value as used in some countries; I was informing you that this was not the case here. Religious institutions CAN marry people in most jurisdictions because they are part of a country's legal marrying process.

Evidently, I was referring to the power of the church to celebrate a legally binding contract. I was surprised by the fact that religious wedding would have actual legal power instead of the strictly decorative value and that is why I was asking if that really was the case. I dont see how that could have been unclear. I understand you were pointing out that sometimes the registrar is there along witht the priest to make things official, and therefore the church is part of the legal marrying process in a way, but seen as he's not a cleric, the power to marry people legally in this situation isn't the churche's.

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It's not as if a registrar just comes along to any old celebration. A person cannot have a party at a friend's house and invite the registrar to get married.

Well, it is where I live. You just pay a fee for a house visit. this is what people who are only getting a civil marriage (the real one in the eyes of the law) do.

But you could also seek out the registrar in a public office of some kind and get married there couldn't you? So his service, even if he doesn't answer house calls, remains basically independent from a religious cerimony.


It is specifically part of a religious marrying ceremony in the majority of western countries that it has legal force, which makes it one of only two ways (the other being purely civil) to do so. The religious ceremony simply would not take place without the legal side.

I think this point is important to understand

I'm still skeptical about the majority of western countries, maybe in the common law nations, but certainly not in mine or the rest of Latin America and I doubt that it's the case in most Civil Law nations. In fact, while I looked up the status in France as they are so concerned with laicité, I found this:

"In some countries, such as France, Spain, Germany, Turkey, Argentina, Japan and Russia, it is necessary to be married by government authority separately from any religious ceremony, with the state ceremony being the legally binding one. In those cases, the marriage is usually legalized before the ceremony. Some jurisdictions allow civil marriages in circumstances which are notably not allowed by particular religions, such as same-sex marriages or civil unions." Same goes for Brasil where I live and Im certain there many others following this pattern.

The religious cerimony would probably still take place without the legal side, it just wouldn't have legal validity. Like it doesn't in a crap load of places.

Found this too

"In many jurisdictions, a civil marriage may take place as part of the religious marriage ceremony, although they are theoretically distinct. In most American states, a wedding may be officiated by a priest, minister, rabbi or other religious authority, and in such a case the religious authority also acts as an agent of the state"

It is this fact that puzzled me as I thought it blurred the division between church and State, so I asked.

You have a sourcing problem there. Germany has abolished that procedure and it's CERTAINLY not true in Spain, which is a deeply Catholic country.

France is the only major west European country where the civil ceremony has to be distinct and come first, I think.

Like I say, the religious ceremonies would not take place without the legal force, as they are based around the marriage being fully official and legal.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You have a sourcing problem there. Germany has abolished that procedure and it's CERTAINLY not true in Spain, which is a deeply Catholic country.

France is the only major west European country where the civil ceremony has to be distinct and come first, I think.

Thanks, I didn't know about germany. So now priests can act as agents of the state or is there a public employee of some kind tagging along the cerimonies to convert the religious wedding into a civil one?

You know for a fact that is not the case in Spain or is it just because they're catholic?

I know that you can get married as a Catholic in Spain without a civil ceremony; a friend of mine did it.

I would imagine you need a civil authority, like in the UK, though I should point out that there is nothing stopping a Priest equivalent becoming a registrar.

I will point out in the US that it's possible for pretty much anyone to get ordained to be able to legally perform marriages and sign the license as the registrar. Each state - and county, for that matter (since your license has to be from the county you marry in) - has its own laws and hence restrictions, but that's pretty across the board true in the US. Online ordination services are pretty big business and commonly used for people who want a ceremony but to have it be presided over by a friend instead of an actual religious authority.

Some states require additional licensing for any priest/rabbi/imam/etc. that is to perform marriages. Some don't require anything but the couple being married to agree that the person performing their marriage is a member of the clergy.

In other words, marriage laws in the US for officiants are kind of all over the place.

Originally posted by Peach
I will point out in the US that it's possible for pretty much anyone to get ordained to be able to legally perform marriages and sign the license as the registrar. Each state - and county, for that matter (since your license has to be from the county you marry in) - has its own laws and hence restrictions, but that's pretty across the board true in the US. Online ordination services are pretty big business and commonly used for people who want a ceremony but to have it be presided over by a friend instead of an actual religious authority.

Some states require additional licensing for any priest/rabbi/imam/etc. that is to perform marriages. Some don't require anything but the couple being married to agree that the person performing their marriage is a member of the clergy.

In other words, marriage laws in the US for officiants are kind of all over the place.

Like when Joey did that for Chandler and Monica....

😐

Originally posted by Bardock42
Like when Joey did that for Chandler and Monica....

😐

Your vagina is showing, B42.

you can get ordained online...facepalm

Originally posted by Robtard
Your vagina is showing, B42.

That's sexist. And I am not insulted by implications of femininity uhuh

Originally posted by Bardock42
That's sexist. And I am not insulted by implications of femininity uhuh

If you say so, princess.

Originally posted by Robtard
If you say so, princess.

You, Sir, are a tool of the patriarchy. I pity you.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You, Sir, are a tool of the patriarchy. I pity you.

I am the ****ing paterfamilias!

Originally posted by Peach
I will point out in the US that it's possible for pretty much anyone to get ordained to be able to legally perform marriages and sign the license as the registrar. Each state - and county, for that matter (since your license has to be from the county you marry in) - has its own laws and hence restrictions, but that's pretty across the board true in the US. Online ordination services are pretty big business and commonly used for people who want a ceremony but to have it be presided over by a friend instead of an actual religious authority.

Some states require additional licensing for any priest/rabbi/imam/etc. that is to perform marriages. Some don't require anything but the couple being married to agree that the person performing their marriage is a member of the clergy.

In other words, marriage laws in the US for officiants are kind of all over the place.

Thanks, that answers it thoroughly and this time accuratelly.

Originally posted by King Castle
you can get ordained online...facepalm

You say that like that's something new.

And really, who cares? If someone wants their best friend to marry them instead of some random justice of the peace or priest or whatever, what does it matter?

Originally posted by 753
Thanks, that answers it thoroughly and this time accuratelly.

No problem.

Originally posted by King Castle
you can get ordained online...facepalm
Yeah, this is the tipping point... The world was all fine and dandy before this travesty. 😛

I agree with Peach on this front. (Shock horror... I know)

Anyone against gay marriage should be slapped in the face by a penis. Am I wrong?

Originally posted by Tired-Hiker
Anyone against gay marriage should be slapped in the face by a penis. Am I wrong?

A poop covered penis.

Originally posted by Robtard
A poop covered penis.

I stand corrected.