Synnar vs. Mandrakk

Originally posted by Cubey
Didn't Mandrakk later on become a threat to the Overmonitor itself?

Originally posted by cdtm
Well, if Ostrander already established Lucifer rebelled against god, then it doesn't matter whether Starlin mentions Lucifer by name as the celestial that rebelled. It's implied.

Originally posted by Galan007
No. In fact, merely falling into the Overvoid (the mind of the Primal Monitor) is what destroyed Mandrakk... Utterly and completely:

Pretty sure Ostrander gave credit to God for creating Lucifer/Michael/the rest of the Heavenly Host.

If he created Synarr to create them, is it any less true saying they were created by god?

Excellent scans 👆

And Mandrakk wins.

Originally posted by cdtm
If he created Synarr to create them, is it any less true saying they were created by god?

What I'm talking about is God himself physically creating something. Not one of his creations, creating something.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes, there is a difference. Using your logic we could also say that the fecal remnants left in the toilet after Joker takes a dump are "created by God."

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes, there is a difference. Using your logic we could also say that the fecal remnants left in the toilet after Joker takes a dump are "created by God."

What I'm talking about is God himself physically creating something. Not one of his creations, creating something.

Well, even in Vertigo, Presence didn't actually create anything. He created Lucifer and Michael, who created everything...

Yet everyone still considered the universe Presences creation.

Originally posted by Galan007
That panel is referring to what God intended Synaar to create. The scan I posted has Synnar telling us what he actually created - ie. "a full spectrum of realitieS".

Originally posted by cdtm
Well, even in Vertigo, Presence didn't actually create anything. He created Lucifer and Michael, who created everything...

Yet everyone still considered the universe Presences creation.

It was even mentioned that Lucifer (and by proxy, Michael) had never made a universe before, but he had watched while it was done:

Hell, Yahweh himself stated that Michael and Lucifer were not needed for creation to blossom. They were only made so that Yahweh could teach them the appropriate skills required for such a task:

Why would Yahweh want to teach them how to build a universe..? Because they were originally meant to be his successors (Michael = the power, Lucifer = the will):

Originally posted by Galan007
Yahweh was responsible for creating the original Vertigo-verse -- neither Lucifer or Michael had a direct hand in it. That's why Yahweh's name was stitched on every single atom of his creation. That's also why creation literally began to unravel when he stepped away from his throne:

It was even mentioned that Lucifer (and by proxy, Michael) had never made a universe before, but he had watched while it was done:

Hell, Yahweh himself stated that Michael and Lucifer were not needed for creation to blossom. They were only made so that Yahweh could teach them the appropriate skills required for such a task:

Why would Yahweh want to teach them how to build a universe..? Because they were originally meant to be his successors (Michael = the power, Lucifer = the will):

Nice scans.

So what about the scene that compared/contrasted Lucifer and Michael, comparing Lucifer as infinite will and Michael as power, and claiming something to the effect that Lucifers will put Yahwehs name on every atom of creation?

I guess I'll have to try and find my stories and reread the thing. At least some scenes made it sound like Lucifer and Michael did have a hand in the creation of the universe though... (And your second to last scan does seem to suggest that while Yaweh didn't actually need them to create the universe, they still did the bulk of the work. Not sure what Presence means by the universe being pregnant with the forms Michael and Lucifer already worked on though... Does that mean they worked on a template, or something?)

Originally posted by cdtm
Not sure what Presence means by the universe being pregnant with the forms Michael and Lucifer already worked on though... Does that mean they worked on a template, or something?)

It means that suns, and in general creation itself, would have formed without direct interference from Lucifer or Michael.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
It means that suns, and in general creation itself, would have formed without direct interference from Lucifer or Michael.

That's how it sounds, but doesn't that downplay their roles?

Lucifer is the lightbringer because he made the suns. Except, the suns would have been created without his interference.. He wasn't needed to make them.

Makes them sound like those Martha Stewart wanna be's who make pancakes from ready made mixes by adding water. They didn't actually create a thing, yet they'll claim they made pancakes..

At least when Destruction said the Endless weren't needed for people to dream and die and go insane, he implied they still had an important role in regulating those things. They actually controlled those forces of nature, instead of just being figureheads of things that could function fine without their participation..

Originally posted by cdtm
So what about the scene that compared/contrasted Lucifer and Michael, comparing Lucifer as infinite will and Michael as power, and claiming something to the effect that Lucifers will put Yahwehs name on every atom of creation?

Originally posted by cdtm
(And your second to last scan does seem to suggest that while Yaweh didn't actually need them to create the universe, they still did the bulk of the work.

"He has never made a universe before. But he watched while it was done, and he is a quick study":
http://img203.imageshack.us/i/luc4.jpg/

Originally posted by cdtm
Not sure what Presence means by the universe being pregnant with the forms Michael and Lucifer already worked on though... Does that mean they worked on a template, or something?)

-Yahweh-
"I did not need you."

"The first flower of light could have been born without a seed."

"And there was no need for a weaver to spin the light into suns. It was already pregnant with the forms which it would become."

"But I had to teach you your skills. And there was no other school":
http://img695.imageshack.us/f/luc2z.jpg/

...Like I said (and explained) in my former post, Yahweh's sole purpose for creating Mike/Lucifer was to groom them to become his eventual successors.

Originally posted by cdtm
That's how it sounds, but doesn't that downplay their roles?

Lucifer is the lightbringer because he made the suns. Except, the suns would have been created without his interference.. He wasn't needed to make them.

Makes them sound like those Martha Stewart wanna be's who make pancakes from ready made mixes by adding water. They didn't actually create a thing, yet they'll claim they made pancakes..

At least when Destruction said the Endless weren't needed for people to dream and die and go insane, he implied they still had an important role in regulating those things. They actually controlled those forces of nature, instead of just being figureheads of things that could function fine without their participation..

It doesn't detact from their feats or power. That's like saying the Sun-Eater during Final Night wasn't impressive because the sun would have died anyway.

Originally posted by Galan007
[B]There was no implication that they did anything except observe. Hence this statement by the narrator...

"He has never made a universe before. But he watched while it was done, and he is a quick study":
http://img203.imageshack.us/i/luc4.jpg/

Yes, but these lines you posted contradict they did nothing except observe:

"The first flower of light could have been born without a seed."

"And there was no need for a weaver to spin the light into suns. It was already pregnant with the forms which it would become."

The first flower of light could have been born without a seed?

Could have?

And there was no need for a weaver to spin the light into suns? Which implies, there WAS a weaver to spin them into suns?

At the very least, Lucifer's implied at creating certain aspects of the universe, if not the architecture of the entire universe.

Going through Lucifers series again now.. This could take awhile.

Anyways, my main point in even bringing Lucifer/Michael up, which I lost track of because Astner got me cold on Vertigo knowledge (I'm man enough to admit it), is that Synarr's existence doesn't necessarily retcon away what Ostrander established, any more then the Primal Monitor has to wipe away the concept of The Presence. Therefore, Synarr not naming Michael and Lucifer as celestials that rose up against god doesn't mean they weren't Lucifer and Michael, using that logic...

Doesn't the Marvel cosmology ever shift like this, and does it still allow for previous elements to exist that weren't specifically retconned...?

Originally posted by cdtm
Yes, but these lines you posted contradict they did nothing except observe:

The first flower of light could have been born without a seed?

Could have?

And there was no need for a weaver to spin the light into suns? Which implies, there WAS a weaver to spin them into suns?

At the very least, Lucifer's implied at creating certain aspects of the universe, if not the architecture of the entire universe.

1.) Yahweh's name was written on every atom of his creation. That's why his name began to fade, and his creation began to crumble, when he stepped away from his throne. Now you might be of the opinion that if the original creation was formed by Michael (power) and Lucifer (will) then that could be interpreted as Yahweh's own power being responsible, hence his name being written on every atom. This incorrect assumption is further addressed in my next point...

2.) When Lucifer made his own creation, he used Michael's demiurgic power as the foundation and used his own will to shape that power into a physical universe/multiverse. So if their power was in direct relation to Yahweh's power, then Lucifer's creation would have also began to crumble when Yahweh took a leave of absence -- but it wasn't affected at all. That alone tells me Lucifer and Michael's power =/= to Yahweh's power. They are completely separate where that's concerned.

So all of that being said, if Lucifer and Michael would have helped create the original universe, then it would have held together despite Yahweh's absence... But it didn't. ie. The Bros didn't have a hand in it's creation.

Originally posted by cdtm
Anyways, my main point in even bringing Lucifer/Michael up, which I lost track of because Astner got me cold on Vertigo knowledge (I'm man enough to admit it), is that Synarr's existence doesn't necessarily retcon away what Ostrander established, any more then the Primal Monitor has to wipe away the concept of The Presence. Therefore, Synarr not naming Michael and Lucifer as celestials that rose up against god doesn't mean they weren't Lucifer and Michael, using that logic...