Thrawn vs the New Republic

The events of The Thrawn Triliogy happen just as they do in the book, but during the Battle of Bilbringi Rukh does not murder Thrawn and the Noghri remain loyal to him. Would Thrawn have been able to conquer the galaxy, or would he have been defeated?

Assume Palpatine will not intefere.

At the very least, it would have still taken him a while to do it. He would be best served securing what he has after his defeat at Bilbringi(He was kind of going to lose, but he could survive it) then either pursuing the Rebellion some more or simply conquer what they don't have in preparation for the long war. The New Republic at this point is still quite divided.

i think he had pretty much lost when he was killed, am i not right?

IIRC he was losing. However he was going to use the Interdictors to pull in more Star Destroyers and flank the Rebels. Granted even if he did win this, I doubt he would have been able to conquer the Rebellion.

i believe he had just given the order to retreat, and told Paelleon that there was no need to win every battle, just the war. Then Paelleon turned to him after giving the order, and he was dead. IIRC.

Just reread the battle and it does seem that he was losing. He never gave the order to retreat however.

if you have it, can you post it? I remember Ackbar had finally successfully set a trap for him, but I don't remember the exact circumstances.

Here is the entire Battle.

"That appears to be all of them, Captain," Thrawn said, gazing out the bridge viewport at the Rebel warships spread out along the edges of the Interdictor Cruisers' gravity cones. "Instruct the Constrainer and Sentinel to secure from entrapment duty and return to their positions in the demarcation line. All warships: prepare to engage the enemy."

"Yes, sir," Pellaeon said, shaking his head in silent wonder as he keyed in the orders. Once again, against overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the Grand Admiral had proved himself right. The Rebel assault fleet was here.

And probably wondering at this very moment what had gone wrong with their clever little scheme. "It occurs to me, Admiral, that we might not want to destroy all of them," he suggested. "Someone should be allowed to return to Coruscant to tell them how badly they were outsmarted."

"I agree, Captain," Thrawn said. "Though I doubt that will be their interpretation. More likely they'll conclude instead that they were betrayed."

"Probably," Pellaeon agreed, throwing a quick look around the bridge. He'd thought he'd heard a faint sound just then, something like an overstressed bearing or someone rumbling in the back of his throat. He listened closely, but the sound wasn't repeated. "Though that would work equally well to our advantage."

"Indeed," Thrawn said. "Shall we designate Admiral Ackbar's Star Cruiser for messenger duty?"

Pellaeon smiled tightly. Ackbar. Who'd just barely survived Councilor Borsk Fey'lya's previous accusations of incompetence and treason over the operation at the Sluis Van shipyards. This time, he wouldn't be so lucky. "A nice touch, Admiral," he said.

"Thank you, Captain."

Pellaeon glanced up at Rukh, standing silent guard behind Thrawn's chair, and wondered if the Noghri appreciated the irony of it all. Given the species' lack of sophistication, probably not.

Ahead, space was filling with flashes of laser fire as the opposing starfighter squadrons began to engage. Settling himself comfortably in his chair, Pellaeon glanced over his displays and prepared his mind for battle. For battle, and for victory.

"Watch it, Rogue Leader, you've picked up a couple of tails," the voice of Rogue Two came in Wedge's ear. "Rogue Six?"

"Right with you, Rogue Two," the other confirmed. "Double-chop on three. One, two—"

Bracing himself, Wedge threw his X-wing into a wild scissors roll. The two TIE fighters, trying to match his maneuver while at the same time not overshooting him, probably never even saw the other two X-wings drop into position behind them. Two messy explosions later, Wedge was clear. "Thanks," he said.

"No problem. What now?"

"I don't know," he admitted, taking a quick look at the battle raging around them. So far, Admiral Ackbar was still holding his Star Cruisers together in combat formation. But the way the periphery support ships were being hammered by the Imperials, the whole thing could dissolve into the mass confusion of a brawl at any minute. In which event, the starfighter squadrons would be basically on their own, hitting wherever and whatever they could.

Which they were for all practical purposes doing now anyway. The trick would be to find something really effective to hit. . . .

Rogue Two must have followed the same reasoning. "You know, Rogue Leader, it occurs to me that those Imperials wouldn't have so many ships available to pound us with if they had to protect their shipyard at the same time."

Wedge craned his neck to look at the blaze of lights off in the near distance. Silhouetted against them, he could make out the dark, brooding outlines of at least four Golan II battle stations. "Agreed," he said. "But I think it would take more than an attack by even the legendary Rogue Squadron to make them that nervous—"

"Commander Antilles, this is Fleet Central Communications," a brisk voice cut in. "I have a signal coded urgent coming in for you under a New Republic diplomatic encrypt. Do you want to bother with it?"

Wedge blinked. A diplomatic encrypt? Way out here? "I suppose so. Sure, put it through."

"Yes, sir." There was a click—

"Hello, Antilles," a vaguely familiar voice said dryly in his ear. "Nice to see you again."

"The feeling's mutual, I'm sure," Wedge said, frowning. "Who is this?"

"Oh, come now," the other chided. "Have you forgotten already those wonderful times we spent together outside the Mumbri Storve cantina?"

The Mumbri Storve—? "Aves?"

"Hey, very good," Aves said. "Your memory's getting better."

"You people are starting to be hard to forget," Wedge told him. "Where are you?"

"Right smack in the middle of that big blaze of Imperial lights off on your flank," Aves said, his voice turning a little grim. "I wish you'd told me you were hitting this place instead of Tangrene like we thought."

"I wish you'd told me what that little job of yours was all about," Wedge countered. "Did a good job of fooling each other, didn't we?"

"Sure did. Fooled everybody except the Grand Admiral."

"Tell me about it. So is this just a social call, or what?"

"It could be," Aves said. "Or it couldn't. See, in about ninety seconds some of us are going to make a grab for the CGT array we came here to get. After that, it's a quick goodbye and we punch our way out."

Punching their way out from an Imperial shipyard. And he made it sound so easy, too. "Good luck."

"Thanks. The reason I mention it is that it doesn't matter much to us which direction we pick to punch through. Thought it might make a difference to you."

Wedge felt a tight smile tugging at his lip. "It might, at that," he said. "Like, say, if you were to come out near those Golan Twos out there. Maybe hitting them a little from behind on the way?"

"Looks like a good route to me," Aves agreed. " 'Course, it'll get nasty outside the perimeter—all those ships and things taking potshots and all. I don't suppose you could find a way to give us a friendly escort from that point on?"

Wedge looked over at the lights, thinking it over. It could work, all right. If Aves' people were able to knock out even one of those Golan II's, it would open up the shipyard to a New Republic incursion. Unless the Imperials were willing to sacrifice it, they would have to shift some of their battle force over there to close the puncture and chase down any ships that had gotten in.

And from the smugglers' point of view, having an influx of New Republic warships to sneak through on their way out would give them better cover than they would get anywhere else along the perimeter. All in all, a pretty fair exchange. "You've got a deal," he told Aves. "Give me a couple of minutes and I'll get that escort arranged."

"A friendly escort, don't forget," Aves warned. "If you know what I mean."

"I know exactly what you mean," Wedge assured him. The traditional Mon Calamari loathing for smugglers and smuggling was the stuff of wardroom legend, and Wedge didn't want to get caught in the middle of that any more than Aves did. Probably why the smuggler had come to him instead of offering his assistance to Ackbar and the fleet commanders directly. "Don't worry, I've got it covered."

"Okay. Whoops—there goes the first charge. See you."

The comm clicked off. "We're going in?" Rogue Eleven asked.

"We're going in," Wedge confirmed, bringing his X-wing around in a tight starboard turn. "Rogue Two, give Command a quick update and tell them we need some support. Don't mention Aves by name—just tell them we're coordinating with an independent resistance group inside the shipyards."

"Got it, Rogue Leader."

"What if Ackbar doesn't want to risk it?" Rogue Seven put in.

Wedge looked out at the lights of the shipyard. So once again, as it had so many times before, it was all going to come down to a matter of trust. Trust in a farm lad, fresh off a backward desert world, to lead him in an attack on the first Death Star. Trust in a former high-stakes gambler, who might or might not have had any real combat experience, to lead him in an attack on the second Death Star. And now, trust in a smuggler who might just as easily betray him for the right price. "It doesn't matter," he said. "With or without support, we're going in."

Cont...

The two Rebel Assault Frigates broke to either side of the beleaguered Golan II, delivering massive broadsides as they veered off. A section of the battle station flared and went dark; and against its darkened bulk another wave of Rebel starfighters could be seen slipping past into the shipyards beyond.

And Pellaeon was no longer smiling.

"Don't panic, Captain," Thrawn said. But he, too, was starting to sound grim. "We're not defeated yet. Not by a long shot."

Pellaeon's board pinged. He looked at it— "Sir, we have a priority message coming in from Wayland," he told Thrawn, his stomach twisting with a sudden horrible premonition. Wayland—the cloning facility—

"Read it, Captain," Thrawn said, his voice deadly quiet.

"Decrypt is coming in now, sir," Pellaeon said, tapping the board impatiently as the message slowly began to come up. It was exactly as he'd feared. "The mountain is under attack, sir," he told Thrawn. "Two different forces of natives, plus some Rebel saboteurs—" He broke off, frowning in disbelief. "And a group of Noghri—"

He never got to read any more of the report. Abruptly, a gray-skinned hand slashed out of nowhere, catching him across the throat.

He gagged, falling limply in his chair, his whole body instantly paralyzed. "For the treachery of the Empire against the Noghri people," Rukh's voice said quietly from beside him as he gasped for breath. "We were betrayed. We have been revenged."

There was a whisper of movement, and he was gone. Still gasping, struggling against the inertia of his stunned muscles, Pellaeon fought to get a hand up to his command board. With one final effort he made it, trying twice before he was able to hit the emergency alert.

And as the wailing of the alarm cut through the noise of a Star Destroyer at battle, he finally managed to turn his head.

Thrawn was sitting upright in his chair, his face strangely calm. In the middle of his chest, a dark red stain was spreading across the spotless white of his Grand Admiral's uniform. Glittering in the center of the stain was the tip of Rukh's assassin's knife.

Thrawn caught his eye; and to Pellaeon's astonishment, the Grand Admiral smiled. "But," he whispered, "it was so artistically done."

The smile faded. The glow in his eyes did likewise . . . and Thrawn, the last Grand Admiral, was gone.

"Captain Pellaeon?" the comm officer called urgently as the medic team arrived—too late—to the Grand Admiral's chair. "The Nemesis and Stormhawk are requesting orders. What shall I tell them?"

Pellaeon looked up at the viewports. At the chaos that had erupted behind the defenses of the supposedly secure shipyards; at the unexpected need to split his forces to its defense; at the Rebel fleet taking full advantage of the diversion. In the blink of an eye, the universe had suddenly turned against them.

Thrawn could still have pulled an Imperial victory out of it. But he, Pellaeon, was not Thrawn.

"Signal to all ships," he rasped. The words ached in his throat, in a way that had nothing to do with the throbbing pain of Rukh's treacherous attack. "Prepare to retreat."

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Yeah I say he would have won.

I think I agree. thanks for the post.

IIRC Pellaeon states in Specter of the Past that he still expected Thrawn to win the battle. Pellaeon was no Thrawn however so with his superior dead he sounded the retreat.

I think Thrawn still would have won at Bilbringi, but at great cost. Even so, his conquest of the galaxy would just be temporarily delayed and he would accomplish his goal at some point.

Yeah, Thrawn would hae won. He even had his next few campaigns made to a level up to micromanagement (couldnt think of a better word)

I think that was said in Specter of the Past

I don't know if I agree that Thrawn would have "won." Gained back more territory for the Empire, yeah, but conquer the galaxy? No.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't know if I agree that Thrawn would have "won." Gained back more territory for the Empire, yeah, but conquer the galaxy? No.

If he can secure a good base, he could win. Easily. But it would take a while.

He would have crushed the New Republic, but run in to problems when Palpatine came along.

If Palpatine was a giant douche, yeah.

But if he lasted long enough to get ahold of the Eclipse...

That would have been awesome.

Palpatine had been purposefully withholding Imperial resources from Thrawn. Thrawn was, after all, trying to claim the galaxy for himself. You can imagine how Palpatine would feel about that.

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
Eventually, he would have. In fact, the best bet would be to unite the parts of the Empire still ruled by other warlords.

If he can secure a good base, he could win. Easily. But it would take a while.

The Wookiee page quotes of the New Republic's lossses: "The New Republic sustained considerable losses in the Thrawn campaign: ten percent of our forces killed, thirty percent wounded—but those are just averages. On the worlds Thrawn actually hit, the devastation was significant."

And continuing: "Notably, this means that the New Republic, which only lost a third of its territory to Thrawn, had lost forty percent of its forces - weakening its control over even more of its territory than it actually lost."

I just really don't see Thrawn losing against the New Republic. The loss of the cloning facilities would have been a blow, but those weren't a deal breaker in the first place. There were only "thousands" of cylinders there, and most of those would have gone in to crewing the Katana Fleet. They were a limited resource.

It would have been against Palpatine that Thrawn would really have been tested. He wouldn't have been able to match him politically and held no where near the loyalty.