Covenant Vs United Federation of Planets

Started by Commander E-1781 pages
Commander E-178 Restricted

Covenant Vs United Federation of Planets

The Covenant as of January 1st 2552 and the United Federation of Planets from the end of Season Two of ST:TNG are transported to an uninhabited copy of the Milky Way three hundred light years apart. A Covenant and Federation scout ship encounter each other, fight it out for a bit, before each withdrawing to report back to their commanders of the new threat. The Covenant declare a holy war against the Federation and begin sending out large scout groups of several dozen ships to find Federation worlds, as does the UFP.

Can the Federation survive against the Covenant Empire?

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

As much as I like Elites cuz they is cool., I'd say the Feds, pretty handily.

Commander E-178 Restricted

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
As much as I like Elites cuz they is cool., I'd say the Feds, pretty handily.

I have to disagree.

1. Federation ships standard FTL speed is 1000C, with a maximum of 21,000C that can be IIRC maintained only for twelve hours. In First Strike we have a Covenant ship with a sabotaged Slipspace drive doing 38,000C without any stress for 13 hours, and in Ghost of Onyx the Covenant Destroyer captured by the Spartans crossed 38 light years in a single hour or 912 light years per day (supported by Halo 2 when Regret’s Assault Carrier crosses the 11,000-25,000 light years between Earth and Delta Halo in 11 days).

2. Standard Federation weapons range from mid-double digit Megatons to mid-hundreds of Megatons (Photon and Quantum Torpedoes). Compare this to the Covenant Destroyers and Cruisers which at a minimum generate 25 Gigatons per second as can be calculated on page eight of Halo: The Fall of Reach when they remove the atmosphere of Jericho VII in a day.

3. Standard Star Trek engagement ranges are vastly inferior to those of the Covenant given they mostly take place in visual range (DS9, First Contact, and Nemesis are all good examples of this). Compare this to Covenant ships which regularly engage with enemy ships at 10,000+ kilometers (Halo: First Strike battle in Slipspace, Halo: The Fall of Reach with a pair of Plasma Torpedoes that on the high end can be taken as being fired at over 9 light seconds, and H:TFoR sniper ship with light speed weapon at 100,000 kilometers).

4. Fleet size. We don’t have solid numbers on the total size of the Covenant fleet, but we’re easily talking 10,000-20,000 ships at least given their able to shrug off the lose of around 300 ships during the Battle of Reach (total Covenant fleet there was 700 ships per the new TFoR edition and supported by Hood in H 2), we also have the lose of 500+ ships and a 30 kilometer in diameter station several weeks later and it is a "meh" event to them (Note: the 500 ships is a low end now given that when the new edition of H:FS comes out we’re easily going to be seeing over a 1000 ships given this is suppose to have been the largest Covenant fleet seen up to that point). To be fair to the Federation we can use their high end fleet numbers which is between 20,000-50,000 starships.

I myself give it to the Covenant due to superior weapons and FTL. It should be a quick campaign for the Covenant unless StarFleet quickly begins the use of something similar to the Cole Protocol.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Covenant cruisers and destroyers are armed with "Pulse Laser Turrets. I checked Halopedia, and it says: "Before the weapon fires, it must first charge, during the charge a sphere of light energy forms around the charging weapon. After it is finished charging, it expels a cyan/purple beam of energy. According to the Halo novels and combat observations, a section of the ship's shields must be dropped for it to fire completely."

The Damage section opens with: "Pulse Lasers are rated in the kilowatt range."

They're also armed with two "Plasma Torpedo" tubes. They're implied to be able to atomize a UNSC capital ship, but to be used, the firing ship's shields must be lowered in that spot.

I'm no Star Trek pro, so I have to ask what their ship-to-ship weapons systems measure in.

It's the Covenant's "Seraph-class Starfighters" that I think would pose the most trouble to the Federation, what with their maneuverability and speed. They're never really seen in game except while docked, and there's no specifics given on the site.

Commander E-178 Restricted

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Covenant cruisers and destroyers are armed with "Pulse Laser Turrets. I checked Halopedia, and it says: "Before the weapon fires, it must first charge, during the charge a sphere of light energy forms around the charging weapon. After it is finished charging, it expels a cyan/purple beam of energy. According to the Halo novels and combat observations, a section of the ship's shields must be dropped for it to fire completely."

The Damage section opens with: "Pulse Lasers are rated in the kilowatt range."


The firepower of the Pulse laser in question comes from Halo: Contact Harvest. But that is easily reconciled with TFoR showing given:

1. It was not a warship using these weapons, but a small Kig-yar scout ship patrolling the edge of Covenant controlled space looking for Forerunner relics.

2. The ship that was attacked when the "kilowatts" was mentioned was a automated civilian cargo ship which the Covenant ship aimed to disable by taking out the external cameras, long range comm., and ensuring the already exposed Slipspace drive was exposed. Given their aim to disable and the civilian nature of the target in question this is easily reconciled with other showings.

They're also armed with two "Plasma Torpedo" tubes. They're implied to be able to atomize a UNSC capital ship, but to be used, the firing ship's shields must be lowered in that spot.

Yes, depending on where the Plasma Torpedo hits it can one shot any UNSC vessel (exact source is Halo: The Flood mentioned by Keyes).

Here is the quote on standard Covenant glassing operations:

Page eight of Halo: The Fall of Reach

Three dozen Covenant ships--big ones, destroyers and
cruisers--winked into view in the system. They were sleek,
looking more like sharks than starcraft. Their lateral lines
brightened with plasma--then discharged and rained fire
down upn Jericho VII.

The Chief watched for an hour and didn't move a muscle.

The planet's lakes, rivers, and oceans vaporized. By to-
morrow, the atompshere would boil away, too. Fields and
forests were glassy smooth and glowing red-hot in patchs.

It requires about 75 or so Petatons to remove the atmosphere of an Earth-like planet, which IIRC when I did the calcs on this before it came out to 25 GT/s ( even if I'm off here its not enough to make a major difference of more than several GT). This is as I said a low end given it requires vastly more powerful weapons to have completely vaporized the oceans of an Earth-like planet in an hour.

I'm no Star Trek pro, so I have to ask what their ship-to-ship weapons systems measure in.

Firepower or range? Firepower of their torpedoes is anywhere from mid-double digit Megatons to mid-triple Megatons, though it can be pushed up to low Gigaton range in some cases. Range can be anywhere from several kilometers (average given what I've seen of ST) with some showings of thousands of kilometers up to 300,000 kilometers for Phasers and torpedoes. The latter allows them to easily engage Covenant ships at standard Halo weapons ranges.

It's the Covenant's "Seraph-class Starfighters" that I think would pose the most trouble to the Federation, what with their maneuverability and speed. They're never really seen in game except while docked, and there's no specifics given on the site.

What little we know that I think of off the top of my head is in Ghost of Onyx:

1. Plasma Charges dropped by Seraph Figthers in atompshere can vaporize objects within a 100 or so meters of the impact site (far large to the 20 meter vaporization diameter of the Wrath tank).

2. Their shields can be weakned enough by several hits from two man-portable SAM Launchers that IIRC upon contact with the ground at unknown speeds (though likely no more than 50-100 kilometers per hour given their noted in FS as not being good in atmosphere and Banshees are known to attack at 50 kilometers per hour).

Conclusions: In large enough numbers Seraph-class Starfighters should pose a major threat to Federation ships, but they should be easily taken out by direct hits from Phasers or proximity detonations of Photon/Quantum Torpedoes.

-Pr- Hey Yo!
Originally posted by Commander E-178
3. Standard Star Trek engagement ranges are vastly inferior to those of the Covenant given they mostly take place in visual range (DS9, First Contact, and Nemesis are all good examples of this). Compare this to Covenant ships which regularly engage with enemy ships at 10,000+ kilometers (Halo: First Strike battle in Slipspace, Halo: The Fall of Reach with a pair of Plasma Torpedoes that on the high end can be taken as being fired at over 9 light seconds, and H:TFoR sniper ship with light speed weapon at 100,000 kilometers).

the effective weapons range of an average starfleet vessel is around 300,000 kilometres.

Robtard Senor Member

There a certain reason why ST is limited to what was shown only up to 1989?

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Originally posted by Commander E-178
The firepower of the Pulse laser in question comes from Halo: Contact Harvest. But that is easily reconciled with TFoR showing given:

1. It was not a warship using these weapons, but a small Kig-yar scout ship patrolling the edge of Covenant controlled space looking for Forerunner relics.

2. The ship that was attacked when the "kilowatts" was mentioned was a automated civilian cargo ship which the Covenant ship aimed to disable by taking out the external cameras, long range comm., and ensuring the already exposed Slipspace drive was exposed. Given their aim to disable and the civilian nature of the target in question this is easily reconciled with other showings.

Do you have the quote for the kilowatt source? I don't wanna toss in the towel over their magnitude if the narrative implies something different.

Originally posted by Commander E-178
Yes, depending on where the Plasma Torpedo hits it can one shot any UNSC vessel (exact source is Halo: The Flood mentioned by Keyes).
I don't remember anyone in-game mentioning the UNSC vessels having shields. If they don't then the Federation shields may pose a problem (for us, since it's hard to quantify if their weapons will be effective).

Originally posted by Commander E-178
It requires about 75 or so Petatons to remove the atmosphere of an Earth-like planet, which IIRC when I did the calcs on this before it came out to 25 GT/s ( even if I'm off here its not enough to make a major difference of more than several GT). This is as I said a low end given it requires vastly more powerful weapons to have completely vaporized the oceans of an Earth-like planet in an hour.
I just looked up the energy projector for the first time, and it says: "The weapon fires a thin beam of extremely powerful and energetic particles. It is possible to predict when an energy projector is about to fire as it typically charges the beam before firing, creating a visible maelstrom of energy. The beam has an effective range of over 100,000 kilometers... The energy projector's beam is seen as only a needle-thin beam that travels at light speed. The energy projector's long range allows a ship armed with such weapons to 'snipe' targets during ship-to-ship combat. The weapon has been observed to gut UNSC ships from stem to stern, as happened to the frigate UNSC Gettysburg over Reach."

And: "Assault carriers one energy projector underneath the bow, one on their dorsal sides, and one near the gravity lift. CCS-class battlecruisers feature one under the bow and one near the gravity lift."

I didn't know they had more than one on the Covenant ships. Especially the carriers with the dorsal projectors. The Feds best bet then is to try and dodge them (since they're apparently easy to predict before firing).

Originally posted by Commander E-178
Firepower or range? Firepower of their torpedoes is anywhere from mid-double digit Megatons to mid-triple Megatons, though it can be pushed up to low Gigaton range in some cases. Range can be anywhere from several kilometers (average given what I've seen of ST) with some showings of thousands of kilometers up to 300,000 kilometers for Phasers and torpedoes. The latter allows them to easily engage Covenant ships at standard Halo weapons ranges.
Again, do you have the quote/source that lists the output? They'd come in handy next time someone opens up a Covenant vs. thread in the Star Wars section. I'll let the Trekkies here contrast the ST weapon outputs.

Originally posted by Commander E-178
Conclusions: In large enough numbers Seraph-class Starfighters should pose a major threat to Federation ships, but they should be easily taken out by direct hits from Phasers or proximity detonations of Photon/Quantum Torpedoes.
Agreed. I don't know enough about Star Trek, but I don't recall them having... "snubfighters". Maybe they do, Iunno.

My main point of contention is the shielding. Most of the examples given of the effectiveness of Covenant technology is against humans, and I don't think the UNSC ships had any shielding. If the Star Trek guys ever get in here, they can provide some numbers for Federation vessels.

Robtard Senor Member

Federation ships can fire (fight) while at warp-speeds and without having to lower their shields. Can the Convenent ships do either of these?

Commander E-178 Restricted

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Do you have the quote for the kilowatt source? I don't wanna toss in the towel over their magnitude if the narrative implies something different.

Page 27 Halo: Contact Harvest

If the NAV computer had been smarter, it might have recog-
nized the dots for the lasers they were--fired its maneuvering
rockets and tried to evade the barrage. But it could do nothing
as the now clearly hostile vessel slagged Horn of Plenty's
propulsion pod, burning away its rockets and boiling the deli-
cate inner workings of its Shaw-Fujikawa drive.

Not knowing what else to do, the NAV computer changed its
distress signal from "engine failure" to "willful harm", and upped
the frequancy of the maser's pulse. But this change must have
alerted whatever was controlling the vessel's lasers, because the
weapons quickly swept the maser dish with kilowatts of infrared
light that cooked its circuits and permanently muted Horn of
Plenty's cries for help.

Without the ability to move or speak, the NAV computer
only had one option: wait and see what happened next. Soon
the lasers idenified and eliminated all of Horn of Plenty's ex-
termal cameras, and then the NAV computer was blind and deaf
as well.

The laser fire stopped, and there was a long period of
seeming inactivity until the sensors inside the cargo container
alerted the NAV computer to a hull breach. These sensors
were even dumber than the NAV computer, and it was with a
certain blithe inanity that they reported a number of bins of
fruit had been openedm ruining their contents' "freshness
guarantees."

I don't remember anyone in-game mentioning the UNSC vessels having shields. If they don't then the Federation shields may pose a problem (for us, since it's hard to quantify if their weapons will be effective).

No, the UNSC don't have ship based shields. But we have seen Covenant weapons used against other Covenant ships and depending on the size and class it can take anywhere from 1-3 Plasma Torpedoes to take out the shields and then one-two more should mission kill it.

I didn't know they had more than one on the Covenant ships. Especially the carriers with the dorsal projectors. The Feds best bet then is to try and dodge them (since they're apparently easy to predict before firing).

Yeah, but as far as we know they can only fire one at a time and their about equal to 3-4 Plasma Torpedoes against Covenant ships (Ghost of Onyx: Brute controlled Destroyer destroyed by Energy Projector blast at close range). Though it should be noted the only reason the Autumn manage to dodge was because of Cortana firing the Emergency Thrusters a split-second before the beam fired and no other ship has been seen to dodge it (at least that I know of, so if anyone has read something new feel free to correct me).

Again, do you have the quote/source that lists the output? They'd come in handy next time someone opens up a Covenant vs. thread in the Star Wars section. I'll let the Trekkies here contrast the ST weapon outputs.

Going off of the quote from TFoR:

High-end: 70 Teratons per second to completely melt the entire crust in one hour.
Mid-end: 7.7 Teratons per second for vaporization of Earth mass oceans in one hour.
Low end: 25 Gigatons per second for removal of Earth atompshere in a single day.

Best I can do currently given there aren't really that many stated numbers for anything when it comes to firepower or reactor output.

Agreed. I don't know enough about Star Trek, but I don't recall them having... "snubfighters". Maybe they do, Iunno.

I believe they had a limited number in the DS9 era.

My main point of contention is the shielding. Most of the examples given of the effectiveness of Covenant technology is against humans, and I don't think the UNSC ships had any shielding. If the Star Trek guys ever get in here, they can provide some numbers for Federation vessels.

As I said we have examples of Plasma Torpedoes against other Covenant ships (FS, GoO) and one-two Energy Projector showings against them (GoO).

Robtard
There a certain reason why ST is limited to what was shown only up to 1989?

I’m most familiar with TNG era and given what I recall end of season two sound like a good time line for ST. Though if you have a suggestion that would make a more interesting debate mention it; we can have multiple scenarios based off of the time line used for Trek.
Federation ships can fire (fight) while at warp-speeds and without having to lower their shields. Can the Convenent ships do either of these?

Only time Covenant ships have ever fought at FTL speeds was under the influence of a Forerunner relic that was really messing Slipspace up. Mostly they ended up shooting themselves as their plasma disappeared and reappeared at random.

On shields the Covenant only need to lower a very small section for several seconds for the weapons fire to pass through. This weakness has only been exploited twice: By Spartans boarding a small (160 meters) Covenant ship by timing when to move through the shields before they closed (TFoR). The other time was during First Strike with the Master Chief and Cortana on a Longsword and Cortana timed the firing of some of the fighters missiles to impact inside the shields to blind its sensors for several seconds.

Robtard Senor Member

Originally posted by Commander E-178

Only time Covenant ships have ever fought at FTL speeds was under the influence of a Forerunner relic that was really messing Slipspace up. Mostly they ended up shooting themselves as their plasma disappeared and reappeared at random.

On shields the Covenant only need to lower a very small section for several seconds for the weapons fire to pass through. This weakness has only been exploited twice: By Spartans boarding a small (160 meters) Covenant ship by timing when to move through the shields before they closed (TFoR). The other time was during First Strike with the Master Chief and Cortana on a Longsword and Cortana timed the firing of some of the fighters missiles to impact inside the shields to blind its sensors for several seconds. [/B]

If that's the case; in theory, a Federation ship could fly circles around a Covenant craft at warp speeds and while firing. Definitely an advantage.

That small section of no shields while firing could easily be exploited by a capable Federation crew (we've seen how capable and inventive a ST crew can be). EG A photon torpedo could be transported into the ship through the shield gap.

BruceSkywalker The BatLord of the Jedi

do the covenant have anyone as fast as data or as skillful as worf

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
do the covenant have anyone as fast as data or as skillful as worf
Not that I know of. For some reason, the inferior technology of the UNSC gave birth to Cortana and her line of AI ilk. In Halo 2 she makes mention of how pathetic the Covenant's attempt are to block her out of the computer system of the freaking centre of Covenant government and power.

BruceSkywalker The BatLord of the Jedi
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Not that I know of. For some reason, the inferior technology of the UNSC gave birth to Cortana and her line of AI ilk. In Halo 2 she makes mention of how pathetic the Covenant's attempt are to block her out of the computer system of the freaking centre of Covenant government and power.

i thought so.. can they detect cloaked ships?

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Not sure, I don't think the UNSC had cloaking technology. The Covenant had their own invisibility fields that their soldiers could wear, but I don't know about their ships.

RE: Blaxican #gottem

Get Polaski in here. She'll win the pro-covenant argument by herself with an endless spiel of Halo bullshit.

Robtard Senor Member
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Get Polaski in here. She'll win the pro-covenant argument by herself with an endless spiel of Halo bullshit.

Ha, I'll raise my bullshit shields and then pummel her with Star Trek geekery of the 9th level.

BTW, Master Chief would in fact open a six-pack of whoopass on Samus.

Omega Vision Face Flowed Into Her Eyes

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Not that I know of. For some reason, the inferior technology of the UNSC gave birth to Cortana and her line of AI ilk. In Halo 2 she makes mention of how pathetic the Covenant's attempt are to block her out of the computer system of the freaking centre of Covenant government and power.

That's probably because the Covenant didn't really make their own tech, they threw together old Forerunner relics and adapted them for military purposes. Their tech is horribly inefficient (as seen by the Plasma Rifles overheating) compared to the original Forerunner tech they copied it from but is still often times superior to human tech in terms of sheer power.