Originally posted by dmillsI think it has more to do with the whole "she just bothers me" deal; IOW, there isn't--or doesn't seem to be--much of a logical explanation as to why. You can dislike Luke Cage, or any character, really. However, it rings questionable without some sort of reason other than "I just don't like him/her."
So if a guy has a problem with the WW mythos it = sexist? So I guess by that logic, all of the people that hate on the Bendis Luke Cage wank are a bunch of racists.
Originally posted by Harbingernow you're making me sound like some random redneck who doesn't like Mexicans because, well, they're Mexican. I have reasons (though, I'm not sure why i need to explain why i don't like a character)...
I think it has more to do with the whole "she just bothers me" deal; IOW, there isn't--or doesn't seem to be--much of a logical explanation as to why. You can dislike Luke Cage, or any character, really. However, it rings questionable without some sort of reason other than "I just don't like him/her."
-I'm not a fan of composite types, character's who're basically walking power conglomerates.
-I don't care for her sense of superiority (the same trait bothers me in Superman, so it's not because she's a woman)
-What she represents in our culture. I have no beef with strong women or feminists; however, I'm not fond of a character who's sole purpose is to be "alpha female"... a woman who can do whatever the boys can do, it's obvious and contrived. Again, it has nothing to do with her being a woman because i love Barda and Power girl; it's just when all those things are combined, it rubs me the wrong way.
Originally posted by marwash22
DC put so much effort in creating a strong female character that can hang with the "big boys" that she has become insanely overpowered. Not saying there aren't male characters who aren't over powered as well, in fact, that's the point of this thread... however, WW is so ridiculous that you can name pretty much any character (who isn't trans), and it wouldn't be completely out of the question that she could beat them in a fight or match (come close to matching) their feats.
Well... yea? Can't you say the same thing about Superman and the other people in that level?
Why single out one of 'em instead of, say, "every high herald"?
Originally posted by 753
WW's lasso is what is broken about her. Her natural powerset itself is pretty ordinary. Dont care much for the character though, should have been dropped with the silver age.
Now that's a reasonable reason. She actually gets what is effectively *truth itself* as a weapon.
Originally posted by Harbinger
I think it has more to do with the whole "she just bothers me" deal; IOW, there isn't--or doesn't seem to be--much of a logical explanation as to why. You can dislike Luke Cage, or any character, really. However, it rings questionable without some sort of reason other than "I just don't like him/her."
Exactly. We're talking what's most outrageous, not who we like/don't like.
Here's an outrageous power: Ancient Gina from the comic Gold Digger has time magic. Not only is it good for time travel, speeding/slowing time, and so on, but she can actually use it to hit people in different eras. She could be reading a history book, see something she doesn't like, and slap someone upside the head thousands or millions of years ago.
marwash22
-I don't care for her sense of superiority (the same trait bothers me in Superman, so it's not because she's a woman)
That really... doesn't describe her well. Except when written badly. One of her character traits is she'll take to anyone as an equal and is really down to earth and approachable when you get down to it.
-What she represents in our culture. I have no beef with strong women or feminists; however, I'm not fond of a character who's sole purpose is to be "alpha female"... a woman who can do whatever the boys can do, it's obvious and contrived.
That's really not her purpose either. To boil her down to one phrase, she's the "spirit of truth." And then there's the whole diplomat-warrior thing she has going on... eh, sounds to me like you have a bad image based on her worst stories. Which I freely admit are out there, she's had way too many bad writers.
One gets distinctly different impressions of her if you read her good stuff and her bad stuff.
Originally posted by marwash22
huh? I was asked why i didn't like the character... i answered that question.
Oh, I meant the first comment, which didn't really cover that bit.
the reason i listed her is due to where her power comes from; she's a walking museum of powers... that's what makes her outrageous. I can say the same thing about the Marvel's, Super Skrull and Amazo.
Ah, I see.
Thor's the same way. God-types tend to have that issue.
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
the UN being a part of galactus
now everyone always thinks its in his powerset so he wins every battle
Hey, thats just the way it is...
Galactus is a major universal force (the middle force between Death and Eternity to be exact), thus it makes sense (IMHO) that he hold a "trump card" capable of eliminating ANYONE or ANYTHING who stands in his way of fulfilling his role in the universal grand scheme...
And like it or not, a non-BS'ing Galactus that is hellbent on winning (or rather achieving a given goal) one shots any non-supreme being type with the Ultimate Nullifier...
Originally posted by 753
WW's lasso is what is broken about her. Her natural powerset itself is pretty ordinary. Dont care much for the character though, should have been dropped with the silver age.
Superman I can accept as being the first of his kind and basically he will always be the kind of high-powered "top dog", whether it's golden age, PC, or current. It's just part of his definition to be top of the heap because he came first.
WW wasn't really like that. Unlike Superman, her creator conceived her as powerful, but still able to be defeated by regular crooks and vulnerable to most weapons, and well below Superman in strength and speed even at the time. Since then they have basically just turned her into a female Superman. But yeah the biggest problem is the crazy weapons they keep giving her to try to make her interesting - lasso that can defeat anything, swords and tiara that can cut anything, super-martial arts, gauntlets of strength, bracelets that can block any attack, anti-TP/illusion power, now godly lightning bolts and so on, all on top of adding flight, lightspeed, invulnerability etc over the years. All together those are a hell of a lot of powerups. What they need to do is get rid of half these crap weapons with no limits and get her back to basics - relying on her amazon fighting skills which are what distinguish her from a lot of other characters around that level.
Originally posted by Allankles
That one bugs me more than most. You see it used as an explanation for why the likes of Xavier don't easily shut down the likes of Hulk.I think even the non super powered humans (Bats?) have telepathic resistance on similar grounds.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Wolverine's is the worst. Fanboys argue that he can somehow resist a telepathy-induced seizure merely by being mad enough. Unfortunately comics back them up.
Storywise I have a problem with TP power in general because any individual telepath, or team with a decent telepath, should be able to take down 98% of earth based villains in a few seconds, in some cases without even leaving the HQ. For that reason the writers have to come up with ever more ridiculous reasons why characters can resist TP.
Wolverine on the other hand has also become too much, even though I like the character quite a lot. He should be tough and a dangerous opponent for street to mid level characters, but I think he's portrayed a bit above what he should be and he shouldn't be easily beating people like Sub-Mariner etc. And his HF is just ridiculous sometimes. They need to tone it down.
Originally posted by basilisk
Superman I can accept as being the first of his kind and basically he will always be the kind of high-powered "top dog", whether it's golden age, PC, or current. It's just part of his definition to be top of the heap because he came first.WW wasn't really like that. Unlike Superman, her creator conceived her as powerful, but still able to be defeated by regular crooks and vulnerable to most weapons, and well below Superman in strength and speed even at the time. Since then they have basically just turned her into a female Superman. But yeah the biggest problem is the crazy weapons they keep giving her to try to make her interesting - lasso that can defeat anything, swords and tiara that can cut anything, super-martial arts, gauntlets of strength, bracelets that can block any attack, anti-TP/illusion power, now godly lightning bolts and so on, all on top of adding flight, lightspeed, invulnerability etc over the years. All together those are a hell of a lot of powerups. What they need to do is get rid of half these crap weapons with no limits and get her back to basics - relying on her amazon fighting skills which are what distinguish her from a lot of other characters around that level.
Point of order- Lasso, tiara, being better at others at martial arts (not in the modern sense, but Amazon Fighting Arts), tp resistance (which is just part of Athena's gift of wisdom and empathy that was there at her birth), and bracelets that can block anything were all part of the origin design.
The basic power set was, from the start, girl of clay, empowered by the gods in various ways (wisdom, strength, speed, beauty, etc.), given an arsenal of Amazon weapons (lasso of truth with fantastic powers, tiara, bracers), sent out to carry a mission of peace to the outside world. Which all tied from the intended character message of strength through self control (hence the tying up with lasso, and the bracers which reigned her in) with a mythological bent, and, yes, her being the strongest woman in the world.
Crooks were not particularly any threat to her (unless her weakness was taken advantage of, of which she had two. Binding her bracers would remove her powers, and removing her bracers would make her go berserk), most of the time she fought supervillains. She was one of DC's top dogs from the Golden Age on.
At the time WW was invented, Superman wasn't particularly powerful either, and they both advanced in power roughly side by side. Why should he get grandfathered in but not her?
Only the lightning, the gauntlet (which she ceased personally using a long time ago), and the sword are really that new-ish, and the sword's not really a big stretch.
Everything else was either always there or was there in lesser form then scaled up (strength, speed, toughness, and even flight) ala what happened to everyone else.
The lasso actually got downgraded in some respects, believe it or not. Nowadays it can bind people and make them tell the truth, but original it could be used to flat-out control someone as well. Or a group of someones.
Storywise I have a problem with TP power in general because any individual telepath, or team with a decent telepath, should be able to take down 98% of earth based villains in a few seconds, in some cases without even leaving the HQ. For that reason the writers have to come up with ever more ridiculous reasons why characters can resist TP.
That assumes a fairly high level of telepathy/that it's not very resistible, which I don't think is a given.
I think telepathy powers often get out of hand- just because you can read/control one mind, or scan a fair number locally, doesn't mean things have to balloon to being able to auto-KO groups, scan worlds, etc. etc.. There's nothing wrong with just having a useful but not auto-win level telepath.
Look WW is nice but my issue is her powers have fluctuated more than superman's which is really saying something. I mean I like both characters and I hate both characters.
WW used to be vulnerable to things like bullets and such but now she can casually shrug off heavy artillery and super bricks. She also had her start as a mid to average high-tier hero doing street sweeps as superman originally did but relied more on her skills rather than inherent abilities. Superman has always more or less relied on just outperforming any opponent in strength, speed and durability.
Additionally it seems to me as soon as WW finds an opponent that she can't beat or out think in comes the helpful gods/location with a weapon of pwn designed to enable her to defeat her unbeatable foe.
I just think a lot of these items are incredibly absurd because if they were made by the gods then how is it possible for the Greek Gods to ever lose at anything. I mean if Ares was equipped with WW gear he would murder the hell out of any living thing.
Hercules with the same gear would kill someone like doomsday with little to no effort.
The problem I have with WW is that her gear just opens up so many plot holes that make someone say if they were made in the first place then why doesn't someone else use it or make a copy. Just like Hippolyta's girdle.
Originally posted by Uriel005
Look WW is nice but my issue is her powers have fluctuated more than superman's which is really saying something. I mean I like both characters and I hate both characters.
While that's true, I'll point out that in much of her early life she was more on the high-end of the heroes of her era, and it's not until post-crisis do you really get power yo-yos. Which, frankly, I hate too, but I think it's more of a problem with BS writing her at low power in some specific runs.
The majority of the time, she's still remained at the high end. So why's her high power, similar to several other characters, the problem and not the low power?
WW used to be vulnerable to things like bullets and such but now she can casually shrug off heavy artillery and super bricks. She also had her start as a mid to average high-tier hero doing street sweeps as superman originally did but relied more on her skills rather than inherent abilities. Superman has always more or less relied on just outperforming any opponent in strength, speed and durability.
True, but while the emphasis is different, she's fought high-end bricks since well before the crisis. The overall level is still quite high.
Additionally it seems to me as soon as WW finds an opponent that she can't beat or out think in comes the helpful gods/location with a weapon of pwn designed to enable her to defeat her unbeatable foe.
I'm... pretty sure that's a problem that Superman, Thor, etc. suffer more than WW does 🙂
The only weapon I can think of that specifically fits that role is the Gauntlet of Atlas. She does not get new weapons often, and most of the ones she does have aren't much in the way of upgrades (fairly recently she got an axe. What advantages does it have over the sword? Or the sword over her normal stuff? Not much, really. It's just an alternate setup. The lightning thing on the bracers is the only real new power she's had in a long time).
I just think a lot of these items are incredibly absurd because if they were made by the gods then how is it possible for the Greek Gods to ever lose at anything. I mean if Ares was equipped with WW gear he would murder the hell out of any living thing.Hercules with the same gear would kill someone like doomsday with little to no effort.
The problem I have with WW is that her gear just opens up so many plot holes that make someone say if they were made in the first place then why doesn't someone else use it or make a copy. Just like Hippolyta's girdle.
Because they're incredibly rare one-of-a-kind items that even the gods cannot easily reproduce (Hippy's girdle was, iirc, made as part of a matching set, and it was actually re-forged to make the lasso, Diana's ones really high-end item), and such weapons, of which the gods do have the equal of like Zeus's thunderbolts or Poseidon's trident, require a significant investment of power (or the sword and such, which Ares does have the equal of, and so do most gods. Weapons that can cut anything and kill goes aren't rare for them).
Also, the Greek Gods do kinda walk all over most stuff they fight.
This also brings another thing to mind: She's supposed to be the champion of the Greek Gods in the world. That doesn't really fit with a low-powered hero.
Point is even if the items are a significant investment over the length of time the gods have been around their should be a lot more over the top items for each of the gods. A basic list that should have been inherent to each god items wise would have been unbreakable armor same material as the lasso, strength buffing objects, cut through anything weapons for starters. The idea that the gods wouldn't invest in at the least unbreakable armor is absurd.
Also even as a champion of the gods she shouldn't be at a level higher than the gods themselves. A champion of the gods in my book is that person you send as a representative of yourself and your pantheon not someone stronger than you otherwise that means that she would be a goddess in her own right which just isn't the case. Beating Ares in combat just didn't sit right with me as she is still not supposed to be greater than the gods.