NJO Luke vs Traya

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So if I tell you that Obi-Wan beat Maul, then Obi-Wan has the strength to beat him, but is he better? If I tell you that a skinny 16 year old fought and beat some professional boxer, wouldn't it be important to know how he did it?

A lot of the time we aren't talking "So and so beat X offscreen."

We're talking cutscenes. We don't just know that it happened, we see them do it. The force-drain most obviously, we see how she does it right there, and it's hardly the only such feat.

We also have some events that are only 'that it happened,' like Traya's defeat by the duo, but when you have on-screen 'hows' in addition... you honestly have info.

*Shrugs* You have the information. Dunno why you pretend it's not there.

Lord Lucien
We see Kreia drain three Jedi Masters. We KNOW that SHE can drain THOSE masters. Can she do the exact same thing to Mace Windu, or Ki-Adi-Mundi? If she can, answer how. If she can't, answer why not.

Lesse, Ki I would think almost certainly yes, Mace probably not. Mace can block dark side powers even from the oft-called strongest Sith ever, and Ki Adi's not likely stronger than three other masters combined and doesn't have any specific anti-dark side abilities abilities.

So Mace's skills allow him to defend, but Ki-Adi not so much so.

We KNOW that Revan can Force Choke a Republic officer. Can his Force choke incapacitate Kyp Durron?

Force choke rarely works force user vs force user, so I would say no.

We KNOW that Revan and Malak defeated a Rakatan droid. Will their combined power be enough to defeat DE Luke and Darth Caedus?

Well the Rakatan droid feat on it's own doesn't give us enough info to judge, but it's still a feat.

If you wanted to compare them to a different droid then it'd be a proper example.

Again, I'm serious. Answer those, using facts.

Ok, done.

These are just the same questions every character who hasn't actually fought their vs opponent faces.

A lot of people around here, you included, know SW better than I do, no question. But I do know vs fights and what can be used as evidence, and you have a source with actionable info, no question.

Dunno why you don't want to acknowledge that you have at least some in that game, but you do.

Originally posted by Q99
You have the information. Dunno why you pretend it's not there.

Because we don't have the information. You say this, and then in answering the Ki-Adi-Mundi and Mace question, you go straight into speculation because you DON'T have the information: Look:

Lesse, Ki I would think almost certainly yes, Mace probably not. Mace can block dark side powers even from the oft-called strongest Sith ever, and Ki Adi's not likely stronger than three other masters combined and doesn't have any specific anti-dark side abilities abilities.

You have no idea if Ki is more powerful than the 3 jedi masters that traya faced. Neither do I. If we had SOME idea of those master's abilities, we could make a statement.

Evan Piel was a Jedi master (council member even) who was killed by 5 stormtroopers. There was no element of surprise, nothing, he just lost.

If these 3 masters from KOTOR are of that level, then Traya's feat means little to nothing, and it is a LONG way from saying that she is better than Ki-Adi-Mundi.

If however, these masters are all at a very high level (Mace, or even Kenobi, or heck even QGJ) then this is a very good feat indeed.
The Truth is, we don't know WHAT level these masters are, so other than your speculation (you said yourself that you THINK so) we know NOTHING about Traya's ability against skilled force users. She loses horribly to Nihilus and to Sion. Sion had lost to many many Jedi if his quotes are to be believed.

Zannah wasn't better than Bane, but she knew an attack that he didn't know how to block. This could very possibly be what happened to these 3 masters.

This would give us ZERO insight into what such an attack would do against a superior force-user. Since we can't say for certain if Ki-Adi is superior or inferior to those 3, we can't say for certain if Traya is inferior or superior to Ki-Adi.

Well the Rakatan droid feat on it's own doesn't give us enough info to judge, but it's still a feat.

If you wanted to compare them to a different droid then it'd be a proper example.

These are just the same questions every character who hasn't actually fought their vs opponent faces.

No, Yoda never fought Kenobi, but we know Yoda was more powerful based on OOU quotations, common opponents (Dooku) and known feats. (Yoda lifting two gigantic Troop ships off the ground and smashing them together).
We need the method of skill, and a substantiated opponent to begin to draw lines.

Q99, if you legitimately don't understand what we're trying to tell you--like you just don't get it, then... then wow, I guess. Can't really think of much else to say other than that.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Q99, if you legitimately don't understand what we're trying to tell you--like you just don't get it, then... then wow, I guess. Can't really think of much else to say other than that.

It's not the problem that people don't get it, it's that they don't want to get it.

truejedi

You have no idea if Ki is more powerful than the 3 jedi masters that traya faced. Neither do I. If we had SOME idea of those master's abilities, we could make a statement.

Vrook survived the Jedi Civil War and later purge and was assigned to lead battle task forces on occasion. The Mandalorians believed Kavar would be placed in command of the Jedi war efforts against them as he was famous as a Jedi guardian. He also fought against the forces of Darth Malak and was personally involved in the Onderon Civil War.

Of the three, only Zez-Kai doesn't have a war record we know of.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Q99, if you legitimately don't understand what we're trying to tell you--like you just don't get it, then... then wow, I guess. Can't really think of much else to say other than that.

I'm pretty sure I get it, I just disagree. You really do have evidence there, but you seem to be engaging in fallacious reasoning to ignore it.

"We know nothing of so and so."
"They did X and Y to Z."
"Yes, but we know nothing of Z."
"Sure we do, they did G and H to R."
"But we don't know anything of R!"

Every time a feat is posted, you just pass it on to the next level as if that completely nullified it, even though if you follow anyone's events you'll eventually get to people doing stuff to no-names.

You've somehow managed to reduce "engaging in combat and demonstrating on screen abilities, as well as knowing what other people think of them and having literally seen dozens of battle of Jedi and Sith in that era to get an idea of what they're like," to "not knowing the slightest thing," in your heads.

Originally posted by Q99
Vrook survived the Jedi Civil War and later purge and was assigned to lead battle task forces on occasion. The Mandalorians believed Kavar would be placed in command of the Jedi war efforts against them as he was famous as a Jedi guardian. He also fought against the forces of Darth Malak and was personally involved in the Onderon Civil War.

Of the three, only Zez-Kai doesn't have a war record we know of.

I'm pretty sure I get it, I just disagree. You really do have evidence there, but you seem to be engaging in fallacious reasoning to ignore it.

"We know nothing of so and so."
"They did X and Y to Z."
"Yes, but we know nothing of Z."
"Sure we do, they did G and H to R."
"But we don't know anything of R!"

Every time a feat is posted, you just pass it on to the next level as if that completely nullified it, even though if you follow anyone's events you'll eventually get to people doing stuff to no-names.

You've somehow managed to reduce "engaging in combat and demonstrating on screen abilities, as well as knowing what other people think of them and having literally seen dozens of battle of Jedi and Sith in that era to get an idea of what they're like," to "not knowing the slightest thing," in your heads.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
We tried guys.

Just to be clear in a brief fashion: Your stance is actually that we cannot draw useful information from the KotoR games?

Originally posted by Q99
Just to be clear in a brief fashion: Your stance is actually that we cannot draw useful information from the KotoR games?

There's information on KotOR characters, but not enough of the right kind.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No. My stance is that, despite the existence of canon cutscenes and events, there is not enough detail surrounding them or their combatants to accurately use in a Vs. match. Too much of it is visual (for the games, all of it is), with far too little being offered in the way of definitive, indisputable statistics.

I think there's more than you're giving credit for, especially considering the connection to the comics which in turn gives us comparisons to other eras.

Saying we don't have enough definitive, indisputable statistics is a fallacy of the excluded middle. We have definite, indisputable statistics on almost no-one in SW, and we have less information on many other people whom you are willing to debate.

Knowing that Malak was proficient in Force Lightning offers us---we debators---no way to contrast that in regards to... anyone else. We don't know how Revan's saber skills measure up against Anakins, we don't how Kreia's... Force Scream would affect Mace Windu, we don't know how Malak's Lightning would affect Bane, we don't know how Bastila's Force push would affect Ahsoka Tano, we don't know how Bandon's... whatever would affect Anakin Solo.

But the same reasoning you use to write off all those feats could easily be used to write off all of Bane's or any number of others. After all, Bane has had far less interaction with other eras and fewer feats than the KotoR characters.

We don't know how Bane's saber skill measures up against Anakin's, or how his lightning would affect Krayt, but we know how they match up against Ka'sim and Hoth, from which we can guess the former but we can't really know any cross-era fight at all by your logic.

We have easily the same amount to work with on the KotoR era as a whole as we do Bane's.

You're projecting a greater lack of information than exists, and repeating that we have none and shaking your head and saying I don't 'get it' when I disagree, with examples, doesn't change whether there's information really there.

We can never tell with 100% certainty how two characters who never interact with certainty, but we do have enough information to tell that probably Kreia would force-drain the heck out of Ki-Adi-Mundi.

There's information on KotOR characters, but not enough of the right kind.

And to me, that really comes off as just writing them off without really breaking down and examining what's there.

And if you don't want to? That's fine! I most certainly have not done so either, I've mostly focused on one or two examples to show how much info you can glean from a single showing. But the debater in me objects to equating having not done the necessary work to go over a game as not having the capability to, especially if other people are willing to debate the subject.

Originally posted by Q99
I think there's more than you're giving credit for, especially considering the connection to the comics which in turn gives us comparisons to other eras.

Originally posted by Q99
Saying we don't have enough definitive, indisputable statistics is a fallacy of the excluded middle. We have definite, indisputable statistics on almost no-one in SW, and we have less information on many other people whom you are willing to debate.

1.) Revan's saber style.
2.) Revan's mentality in his fight against a.)Bastila's strike team, b.) Calo Nord, c.) Bandon, d.) Dark Bastila, and e.) Malak. Point out to me how strong Revan's Force push was. Point out to me how fast he moved. Point out to me the step-by-step sequence of every fight.

Do it, seriously, because these are all things we need to do a proper Vs.

Originally posted by Q99
But the same reasoning you use to write off all those feats could easily be used to write off all of Bane's or any number of others. After all, Bane has had far less interaction with other eras and fewer feats than the KotoR characters.

We don't know how Bane's saber skill measures up against Anakin's, or how his lightning would affect Krayt, but we know how they match up against Ka'sim and Hoth, from which we can guess the former but we can't really know any cross-era fight at all by your logic.

Originally posted by Q99
We have easily the same amount to work with on the KotoR era as a whole as we do Bane's.

Originally posted by Q99
You're projecting a greater lack of information than exists, and repeating that we have none and shaking your head and saying I don't 'get it' when I disagree, with examples, doesn't change whether there's information really there.

Originally posted by Q99
We can never tell with 100% certainty how two characters who never interact with certainty, but we do have enough information to tell that probably Kreia would force-drain the heck out of Ki-Adi-Mundi.

Originally posted by Q99
And to me, that really comes off as just writing them off without really breaking down and examining what's there.

Originally posted by Q99
And if you don't want to? That's fine! I most certainly have not done so either, I've mostly focused on one or two examples to show how much info you can glean from a single showing. But the debater in me objects to equating having not done the necessary work to go over a game as not having the capability to, especially if other people are willing to debate the subject.

Q99, this is the Old School "KOTOR sucks" mafia. It used to be possible to argue toherwise, but then a crapton of old guys either got banend or left.

Imagine if Ralson, MJ, Admiral Vice, Lord Squishy, foamy and about 8 or so others got called on their bullshit (Basically, the guys who either non-stop troll or do nothing but ***** and complain while offering few if any ideas of their own and do little else besides sniping) and were told that, basically, to stop their trolling, regardless of its currently approved nature, and refused to do so.

Except, the guys who got kicked here were rarely trolls and, while occasionally abrasive, were actual, serious contributors. Basically, the exact opposite of Ralson or Vice. Imagine if SB didn't go by a "Approved" flaming rule and simply were brutally intolerant of those who flamed, and were indifferent to whether the target 'earned' it or not. Imagine if SB's staff treated every flame as the same and banned them all without prejudice. The staff here did that, and only a few parts of KMC have escaped somewhat intact.

Or better yet, imagine if all the Atheist who had very low tolerance for anything outside there beliefs and used SDN as their nerd-stomping ground were banned.

The Moderatorship here somewhat accidentally killed and banned the heart and soul of this place. Except, while a few are still around, refuse to accept anything outside of Lucas' rather incompetent rules of canon.

Bingo.

And whaaa?

That was meant as a pm to Q99.

Got the PM page and the public posting page confused, huh? Happens to me all the time.

EDIT: Oh, shit.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Got the PM page and the public posting page confused, huh? Happens to me all the time.

EDIT: Oh, shit.

Luke wins easily, unless if Traya's attack is unblockable.

Originally posted by KMCmember
Luke wins easily, unless if Traya's attack is unblockable.

Unless is a necessary condition while if is a sufficient condition. Putting one after the other is just plain WRONG.

So did you like, merge with Red or something?

That's offensive to one of them. Guess who.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So did you like, merge with Red or something?

No, I just wanted to sound like a pseudo intellectual douchebag. You have insulted me sir and I demand satisfaction.