Dart vs Auron

Started by CosmicComet4 pages

-cont-

How did he do it? If he believes his sword can’t chop down a tree that’s already almost down, then how could he even hope to damage a snake that is bigger, heavier, and more durable than that tree by a significant amount, let alone cause it major injury? The thing is even heavy enough to cause a noticeable rumble in the ground from its fall, which that tree would not, nor would any animal walking today, and more importantly it was durable to withstand the weight of its fall. Which is insane for an animal that large; square-cube law establishes that the bigger the animal is, the less able it is to support and move around its own weight. It’s why an ant can fall from basically any height with no injury and carry hundreds of times its weight yet an elephant can be fatally injured from a fall from even a few feet off the ground and can’t carry anymore than a quarter of its weight.

And that’s only the 2nd ever of the game, would you mind explaining HOW, they beat a much later disc 1 boss like Jiango?
YouTube video
^Whole thing. Jiango is heavy enough to crush a boulder when he falls on it after the fight. That’s a lot heavier than a friggin tree.They beat the thing in only a few minutes too, as they got up to Fruegal right after it, and just before the rising sun could be seen.

With these two examples out of the way, it would seem your example would require you to adhere to logic resembling something like that Dart can just cause damage by staring at bosses or something? Maybe it slowly dies by itself while the party just strikes a pose the whole time, maybe they are allergic to action poses?? Just maybe? Since surely his sword should shatter in trying to damage things like that right? Lol. You’re an idiot.

Again, what the hell do you think you’re saying with this ‘outside of gameplay’ shit? THINK, you moron. There aren’t two different forms of characters and canon within the game, there is only one plot to progress and one set of character abilities, and the things that do so are the boss fights. Not one-shot ‘puzzles’ like getting that axe and chopping down a tree with it. How you can suggest one thing can exist unchanged/unchallenged while it would inhibit everything else from realistically happening is mindboggling.

You want me to explain how the tree thing can exist within the game and not cause any problems? Oh, its very simple and the choices themselves are simple;
1.Dart was simply wrong about the statement that he proposed about his sword not being durable enough to chop down a near fallen tree, I mean, did he even try? Nope. These things happen, unless there is an explanation, one defers to the visuals when there is a contradiction between sayings vs showings.
2. Dart found a higher quality, more durable sword along the way. We know the party upgrades their weapons because weapon shops are mentioned at least twice in the game; once by Lavitz when suggesting preparations to go to Hoax, and secondly in the 4th disc, Albert and Kongol can be found in a Wingly weapon shop in Ulara perusing the selections before they leave. In fact there is a higher quality sword you can pick up in the cave where the snake is, so its possible that Dart acquired it in the story.

See? That was easy.

And about the axe thing? Lol its just more lame, desperate, inaccurate and/or subjective retelling. He did not struggle to lift the thing at all and he carried it casually on his shoulder afterward, nor did he struggle to swing it, he did not groan or grunt while swinging. It’s a tree that’s like half fallen and its on a frigging CLIFF, why, would he swing the axe as hard as he can? That would be stupid. Either way he put it down in 3 hits.

I’ll even post the event for you since you think its so influential.
YouTube video
^5:25-6:30

Now to get back to some cutscene/story examples of strength.
-Dart knocked the mangled Virage into a pool of lava, where it drowned. We already know Virage are heavy as hell so even this legless thing would be heavy. And again, its durable enough to splash around in lava and withstand the heat—and not like creatures that are simply elementally immune to it like the firebird--the virage is simply durable enough to withstand it. Screw trees.

-And this:
YouTube video
^:00-:29 intro & 5:04-end. An end of disc 1 feat. Rose shatters Kongol’s Giganto armor into pieces in a single thrust. One, this armor is huge. It fits on a very bulky 8’3” humanoid. Two, its so heavy that Kongol’s steps are shaking the thick stone bridge that they are all standing on. This is a massively superhuman feat. She didn’t just pierce it, no, with one thrust she shattered it. This is 1st disc Rose, and by the 4th disc when Rose will have gotten stronger herself, Dart is able to physically match or surpass her in a show of strength in this scene;
YouTube video
^:22-1:37. Flashback sequence in the first disc of Dart and Rose clashing swords. Dart ‘shoves’ her back during this clash…His sword that supposedly can’t cut through a tree doesn’t break either. : )

Anyway, compare Rose’s feat to this video, where a lance strike is mechanized to be coming at the speed of horseback against some armor.
YouTube video
What does it do? Nothing more than make a pinhole in that coat of plates. And that armor is for a normal sized person, and is not as dense as Kongol’s armor either, as even if it was scaled up to fit an 8’3” person, it still wouldn’t cause their steps to quake the ground or anything. So basically, screw your shitty tree. Dart is strong as hell. And guess what? This happens ‘outside of gameplay’ too. 😉 And since this is a clear superhuman strength feat from Rose in disc 1 alone, it further validates Dart’s superhuman strength feat of slashing through the Divine Dragon later in disc 3 when we know he would have gotten a lot stronger then, (along with the rest of the party).

The cutest part of this attempt at a counter point was how sure you sounded. : ) Lol. But on the real though; that was dumb of you. Very, very dumb. Both with the implications of what your shitty logic would present and thinking that there wouldn’t be an easy address for it. It’s dumb enough to make me realize that I have no further need of wasting time on you, the first to occupy my ignore list now, there you go.

Thanks for making this so easy.

(btw, every mention of strength feat for Dart here is being generically used to refer to striking force)

Nice way of debating. That's called Appeal To Motive. You "refute" my stance by bringing up a possible motive for my argumentation or irrelevant points such as claiming 'I like Squall', therefore I "downplay feats".

Lol. Not at all, it was simply a quaint observation I've come to make and mentioned as an aside to goad this exact, predicted response. It was successful, and amusing. However…
Were you not the same wide eyed hopeful who asked me randomly in a conversation, who I supported
between Cloud and Squall in a fight? To which I responded; before Advent Children I would have said a tie? And then you went on some longwinded spiel to convince me that Cloud and co are not superhuman (bullet timing etc.) because some developer quote said they wanted to take some 'artistic license' or some such with the movie to embellish things? And were you not the same person who could not understand how useless that quote was when they continued to use that 'artistic license' to further establish
in the canon how superhuman the crew was with a few other games (Crisis-Core, Dirge of Cerberus, maybe Before-Crisis) and even an OVA (Last Order) on top of AC? Were you not the same guy who could not wrap your head around the concept of retcons and that those subsequent canon entries
were instruments that retconned the whole game of FF7 into a superhuman bullet-timey fest?

It might have been you with all that desperate pro-squall denial/sour grapes that I was talking to, but then again I might have been imagining it. Who knows? 😉

Don't be so emotionally attached to videogame characters.

Oh I’m not, this has simply been my debate style since forever. I do enjoy throwing barbs. Very fun.

Why don't you focus on backing up your claims instead of accusing me?

Oh but I have been, and have never done anything but that. I can also take jabs at you for a percent or two of my posts and then swing back in to the actual debate portion in-which you come up short. Its not a problem for me and easy for me to separate the two. Why don’t you become passable at analyzing and comprehending quantifiable feats? 
Squall has nothing to do with anything and I love The Legend Of Dragoon.

K. You can love it all you want—(and then idiotically attempt low ball Dart into a guy who can’t even chop down a tree). Doesn't change that you demonstrate a lack of ability to piece together scenario details, and to demonstrate subsequent knowledge of real life phenomena and analogues that goes into establishing quantifiable feats. (But hey, I don't blame you. You're not used to dealing with feats, you like Squall afterall. 😉 )

So stop being childish and stop taking scenes out of context, because you see a guy dodging some swords slashes then you jump to 'he has super-speed'.

Except I’m not taking anything out of context. All of the feats happened ‘as is’. The only attempt you’ve made at even justifying this supposed issue that I’m ‘taking things out of context’ is on the issue of Dart’s friends being present during the second Lloyd fight. Which I didn’t even say they were not.

-cont-

Secondly, wut? What I do, is know how to analyze general scenario details. Hence determine quantifiable feats. What you do is lack the general knowledge--And then since you can’t reconcile with them being at the levels I show them to be (again, do you need a narrator to hold your hand and point out all their feats to validate them for you?), you try to undermine them by attempting to cite one-shot low showings and try to establish those as the proper levels when your attempted classification (claimed trouble with a tree and no faster than an ordinary woman in Sister Wink? Lmfao) would make it IMPOSSIBLE for them to complete the plot. Your approach is moronic, and I’ve grown tired of having to stomp on it.

You have some allergies when it relates to quantifying things on screen as well. This base, surface level approach to character debate makes predictions on matches shallow and often inaccurate. Repeating this example: Two unrelated characters are pitted against each other, both of whom whose main attribute is strength. One held up a tank, the other held up a modest sized boulder. Declaring the former as stronger based on him lifting up the visually larger object would be premature and faulty. It’s not a matter of ‘overrating’ characters, as everyone is subject to it, so much as it’s a way of making sure they stack up against each other accurately. Your style perpetuates ignorance. So please, just stick to debating between other, more vaguely defined rpg characters, a situation where its very difficult to be outright wrong. ; )


And if you don't know the meaning of some fallacies nor you have enough knowledge about them, I suggest you to learn some of the most basic logical fallacies, believe me, it'll help you to at least not commit them so often.

Ironic as hell, because this is the exact issue you’ve shown yourself to suffer in your posts. Your references come off as tenuous as all hell, sounding like they come from you scanning some handy
glossary of terms for fallacies looking for anything that could even remotely sound applicable to the discussion at hand. Want an example? In the NF forum thread you were questioning the reason that the
Auron thread was added as a victory under Dart’s OBD wiki profile. And I told you that the procedure is that when a general agreement is reached in a thread, that is how victories/losses are determined to add to the wiki. And you claimed this was an ‘Appeal to Popularity’ (LOL) when it was nothing more than me answering your question on the criteria that allows threads in general to be counted as wins or losses as per the OBD wiki standards. You also went as far as to presume that everyone in that thread was somehow too uninformed to make a sound choice i.e. that they were being ‘lead’ by my words, even when everyone who decided on a Dart victory had indicated to play and/or beat both games in the past, had a respect thread linked to them to re-familiarize with the LoD feats in case they didn’t remember much of the game, and that I was not the sole person to actually recite some of those feats. And no, there was no context missing from them and no ‘fanon’ to refute as everything I said in the respect thread did in fact happen. Hell, you weren’t/aren’t even ARGUING whether Dart wins or loses, the near entirety of your issue is/was arguing that Dart did not beat Lloyd alone, which isn’t even CLOSE to being a ‘swing issue’ that is going to determine the difference between victory and defeat for Dart against Auron—seeing as Dart still has consistently clear quantifiable superhuman feats otherwise(which you have yet to be able to demonstrate an ability to refute).  Basically, it was superfluous as all phuck to claim that fallacy and it was nothing more than a silly attempt at sounding informed. Don’t expect your one line usages to do your debate work for you. Instances such as these sound as if they come from nothing more than a feeble, half-baked pseudo-intellectual. I would recommend that you gain more competence, and THINK before you post in the future.

On topic: Base Dart slaughters Auron.

PS: If anyone wants a link to the respect thread constantly referred to in this post, I can PM the link. And if anyone is wondering why this post is so long, I tend to not just debate one person, but be as thorough and detailed with as many examples with video as possible so people outside of the debate know more about the context of everything.

Damn. This got pushed to the next page.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Yo broseph. Hope you didn’t think I forgot? I’ve been having laptop (on which this post was saved whilst over half finished) troubles for the past few weeks, only got it sorted out last week or so. : )
Take a sigh of relief though, this is a busy final semester for me at uni so don’t expect to hear from me anymore. I can predict the quality of a prospective response anyway and I know its not going to be of any interest or be able to respond thoroughly. Mega Multi-post incoming

Bro, sorry for wasting your time, but I'm not going to respond to almost two pages of text. It's honestly too long and confusing to address, really. I guess I have already addressed them pretty well anyway without so much speculation from my side in my previous post. You probably want your points to be detailed, yes, but they are over-exaggerated in length (argumentum verbosium). You wouldn't need this at all, just state your premises and conclusion if you are 100% sure about your arguments holding weight without hypothesis. I mean... you wouldn't need almost 2 pages of words to respond to an 'incompetent' such as myself either. But I'm glad I hit a nerve, Lol. Plus, there are images you posted that aren't even visible. I've been reading a bit, but not all of your posts. I've noticed there are many things you said in NF, that by the way I have already analyzed and still disagree. Your insults being an example. Okay, we'll have to leave it for another LoD discussion, if there is any. I just wanted to reply this, so you can relax without waiting for me to answer your 'mega multi-post'.

No grudges against you, bro. 🙂

I love FF but Auron is too slow and featless.

Also sorry but i myself lol at the idea of AC not being superhuman when Cloud was cutting skyscrapers, moving faster than lightning, tanking bahamut`s Tremor flare, flying, so on....

😱

Yeah... I'm giving it to CosmicComit on this one. Not necessarily because his points refute the opposition, but because absolutely NO ONE is going to have the time or energy to read through that response and then respond back.

Well... I guess that's one way to win a debate... 😆

Also just one thing to point out;

I wouldn't try and use the OBD wiki as proof. For one an agreement is almost never reached the wiki editor just pics the character he likes most and posts it as if he won when there wans't even a deciding argument or concession.

And it's never a good thing to use other forum's opinions as proof. Because first people think differently in between forums. Second is because this forum has to decide by it's self. It's borderline retarded to just concede to a bigger forum's opinion when they have no argument.

Nevertheless Dartz wins this.

Originally posted by TacDavey
😱

Yeah... I'm giving it to CosmicComit on this one. Not necessarily because his points refute the opposition, but because absolutely NO ONE is going to have the time or energy to read through that response and then respond back.

Well... I guess that's one way to win a debate... 😆

Damn right. 😆

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Also sorry but i myself lol at the idea of AC not being superhuman when Cloud was cutting skyscrapers, moving faster than lightning, tanking bahamut`s Tremor flare, flying, so on....

Cloud is super-human. But most fans use Advent Children to prove Cloud's superiority over the rest of the Final Fantasy characters.

EDIT: I don't know how Cloud and Final Fantasy are relevant in this thread, though...

Cloud is super-human. But most fans use Advent Children to prove Cloud's superiority over the rest of the Final Fantasy characters.

EDIT: I don't know how Cloud and Final Fantasy are relevant in this thread, though... [/B]

Not to sound spiteful or anything but AC does give Cloud the best feats of well any FF character in terms of speed and strength.

I mean he didn't show anything particularly powerful in VII, the best i remember was him overpowering Seph in a spiritual battle which would probably make him the strongest willed protagonist of all but that's it.

In AC and the rest of the compilation though.....they gave FFVII's SOLDIERS physical powers that were not shown for any other FF character in speed and strenght.

I mean jesus a half dead Cloud one-shotted a bahamut with a climhazzard and moved faster than a lightning bolt....

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Also just one thing to point out;

I wouldn't try and use the OBD wiki as proof. For one an agreement is almost never reached the wiki editor just pics the character he likes most and posts it as if he won when there wans't even a deciding argument or concession.

And it's never a good thing to use other forum's opinions as proof. Because first people think differently in between forums. Second is because this forum has to decide by it's self. It's borderline retarded to just concede to a bigger forum's opinion when they have no argument.

Nevertheless Dartz wins this.

That was never ever the point though.

It's not proof of a victory, nor was it presented as that, it was simply addressing the general terms that are agreed upon for entering in the wiki. And in this case it was 3 pages of people agreeing on Dart and no one giving an argument for Auron.

I was originally asked why Auron was listed as a victory for Dart on the wiki in a challenging manner. And I answered it.

edit: Are the pics not showing up for anyone?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
That was never ever the point though.

It's not proof of a victory, nor was it presented as that, it was simply addressing the general terms that are agreed upon for entering in the wiki. And in this case it was 3 pages of people agreeing on Dart and no one giving an argument for Auron.

I was originally asked why Auron was listed as a victory for Dart on the wiki in a challenging manner. And I answered it.

edit: Are the pics not showing up for anyone?

No problem but Auron never really had a chance.

The problem with that wiki is that even undecided matches are posted as victories for some. Just wanted to warn some of that.

Yea i can't for some reason see imageshack imgs.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
And in this case it was 3 pages of people agreeing on Dart and no one giving an argument for Auron.

That's an appeal to popularity fallacy... and I gave arguments for Auron. You were the only one giving arguments for Dart. 😬

Either way I admit Dart Dragoon is > Auron.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Not to sound spiteful or anything but AC does give Cloud the best feats of well any FF character in terms of speed and strength.

I mean he didn't show anything particularly powerful in VII, the best i remember was him overpowering Seph in a spiritual battle which would probably make him the strongest willed protagonist of all but that's it.

In AC and the rest of the compilation though.....they gave FFVII's SOLDIERS physical powers that were not shown for any other FF character in speed and strenght.

I mean jesus a half dead Cloud one-shotted a bahamut with a climhazzard and moved faster than a lightning bolt....

If we go by AC alone, I'd have to agree. Cloud is the strongest FF character...

It's just better to keep each forum's shit separated.

I posted on the OBD a long time ago and they aren't particularly fond on more popular RPG's such as FF.

But they are extremely fond of these more obscure RPGs such as Legends of Dragoon. Not saying that legend of dragoon is obscure but it's certainly less know than FF.

So yes Squall is right, it is an appeal to popularity fallacy.

Hey, Enfathiel. You are from NF, right?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Hey, Enfathiel. You are from NF, right?

I was. I left and then stopped posting for a very long time.

I'm just saying using their opinions, which are as biased as everyone else's is an appeal to popularity on a forum that prefers these certain RPGS.

It's just how their mentality works there. Nothing more.

I addressed this popular fallacy accusation already Enfathiel.

I didn't say it was right, wrong, or state it as proof of my argument--(why would that somehow suffice as proof when I'm actually debating at such length anyway?), I simply said why Auron gets to be listed as a victory for Dart due to consensus model that exists for adding it. Auron had no argument saying he could win with X feat or X attribute. There was none of that.

And I gotta fix the images somehow.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I addressed this popular fallacy accusation already Enfathiel.

I didn't say it was right, wrong, or state it as proof of my argument--(why would that somehow suffice as proof when I'm actually debating at such length anyway?), I simply said why Auron gets to be listed as a victory for Dart due to consensus model that exists for adding it. Auron had no argument saying he could win with X feat or X attribute. There was none of that.

And I gotta fix the images somehow.

What is this model you talk about? I just don't understand why another forum's consensus was even stated here, that's all. This sin't necessarily on this account , as Auron would never win, but in other future accounts that might occur.

Nevertheless Auron never really had a chance to win, base or dragoon.

I can't make my Image shack appear either. They just show up as a frozen frog that 's laughing at me.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I addressed this popular fallacy accusation already Enfathiel.

I didn't say it was right, wrong, or state it as proof of my argument--(why would that somehow suffice as proof when I'm actually debating at such length anyway?), I simply said why Auron gets to be listed as a victory for Dart due to consensus model that exists for adding it. Auron had no argument saying he could win with X feat or X attribute. There was none of that.

And I gotta fix the images somehow.

You can ''address'' a fallacy by simply not committing it. And you're still like... committing it. By saying everyone agreed with you, thus Dart wins. Some may agree with Dart's 'feats', I'm afraid others won't. So far you were the only one making arguments for Dart, and as I said, I disagree with most of them. I gave reasons for that purpose. Just because I won't respond to your posts now, doesn't mean I don't have counter arguments for them. I have already proved that when I didn't reply back in NF but I did replied here.

So....Auron got anything going for him except for the slight possibility of being a lightning timer?

Unfortunately he's not a lightning timer. They went running from pole to pole in the lightning fields, in the actual story they never really dodged lightning in cut-scene. It was only a minigame. There were other minigames like that in FF VII and V i think......that would make people like Riku or Barret mach 300+ which is completely ludicrous IMO.

The only hero who i know has legitimately dodged lightning and has consistent speed to back it up is DoC Cloud.

Well, he's stronger than Tidus. At least in the beginning of the game, which says a lot. There aren't much feats for Auron to be honest.