Cross Genre Match #18: Chun Li vs Elektra (With TP)

Originally posted by jinzin
Where it concerns Elektra's TP nowhere EVER has it been stated to be her manipulating chi.... and if that's the bullshit argument these people choose to believe then they need to realize that you presumably mean that Chun Li, a heavy chi, user would have more chi for Elektra to manipulate... Just stupid.

I'm not sure I get the rest of your post, but it sounds like you're sugesting that if her TP is based in mental contorol over other people's Chi, then characters with Chi amp would be more vulnerable to it. This is bizarre, as their powers are based on voluntary control over their own Chi and no one would claim Iron Fist would be more vulnerable to Elektra's mind control trick shown in the scan than The Hand ninja, because he has so much more Chi than they do. She'd have to wrestle control over it from him and we could expect some active resistance on his part.

Originally posted by 753
Your post makes no sense. She controls other people's Ki with her mind .

She also has telepathy.

Originally posted by 753
Yeah, this scan says it unambiguously.http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt14/elektrarespectthread/Skill/Elektra_Skill_Elektra_Root_Of_Ev-4.jpg

I'm not sure I get the rest of your post, but it sounds like you're sugesting that if her TP is based in mental contorol over other people's Chi, then characters with Chi amp would be more vulnerable to it. This is bizarre, as their powers are based on voluntary control over their own Chi and no one would claim Iron Fist would be more vulnerable to Elektra's mind control trick shown in the scan than The Hand ninja, because he has so much more Chi than they do. She'd have to wrestle control over it from him and we could expect some active resistance on his part.

For the first part.
What he (Existere) said..... 😐

For the second. You don't seem to understand the catch 22 that your argumentation resides in. If Elektra's only able to use telepathy as a result of Ki manipulation like you suggest, then it only stands to reason that those with higher amounts of ki would have more substance for Elektra to manipulate....

The reason why you don't see people arguing this Iron Fist nonsense is because your argument is faulty from the start.

She can manipulate others' ki... sure, and that's nice... that doesn't explain her telepathy.... which is something else entirely.

Originally posted by jinzin
For the first part.
What he (Existere) said..... 😐

For the second. You don't seem to understand the catch 22 that your argumentation resides in. If Elektra's only able to use telepathy as a result of Ki manipulation like you suggest, then it only stands to reason that those with higher amounts of ki would have more substance for Elektra to manipulate....

The reason why you don't see people arguing this Iron Fist nonsense is because your argument is faulty from the start.

She can manipulate others' ki... sure, and that's nice... that doesn't explain her telepathy.... which is something else entirely.

The idea that a Chi fighter is more vulnerable to outside Chi manipulation is absurd. Not only do they have more substance, they also have voluntary control over it, unlike regular people. It only stands to reason that it would take an active effort in wrestling control over their lifeforce away from them. Nobody would say Elektra can use that trick on IF because his control over his own Chi > her gimmick.

Originally posted by jinzin
Eh I don't really agree....

There's been a lot of bluntly put... lies in this thread. And terrible logically unsound argumentation at that.

For one, Chun Li from Alpha didn't do squat but beat up a few thugs.
And this nonsense talk that she's on the same level of Ken and Ryu is just bullshit.

In Alpha she was shocked to see Ryu dodging bullets so that little movie doesn't account much for her speed.

And she may be typically on Guile's level, but he's also typically not even remotely close to as skilled, powerful or fast as Ryu and Ken.

Chun Li's feats are actually few and far between. We know that Street Fighter characters can take apart a car and Chun Li's "supposed" to be able to kick a tank apart.

I actually think the USA toon Chun Li was the only one that I've seen kick one apart... but I digress.

Udon is definitely the most powerful version with quantifiable feats of any sort.

Where it concerns Elektra's TP nowhere EVER has it been stated to be her manipulating chi.... and if that's the bullshit argument these people choose to believe then they need to realize that you presumably mean that Chun Li, a heavy chi, user would have more chi for Elektra to manipulate... Just stupid.

In any case, as I've said before.. Elektra is a character who gets written down to fight street level characters quite literally to the admission of various writers... She's the Superman of the street level tier constantly not using powers she's shown and displayed numerous times to give people a fighting shot who have no business fighting her. And where her TP is concerned it's presumably mystical in nature but very effective... She's successfully used it to block Jean Grey from reading her thoughts and used it to communicate to Wolverine.

As far as the fight's concerned....

Chun li IMO has the ranged energy attacks but I don't think they're powerful enough to drop Elektra who stood up to an optic blast to the face. At least not one... If Li manages to land several of them on Elektra then E's definitely in trouble.

IMO Li has faster limb speed at a constant rate while Elektra has faster burst speed.

They look to have about the same level of agility but Elektra's much faster when using it.

Li is physically a lot more powerful but with Elektra's superhuman durability I think Elektra could tank a number of her hits before being put down.

Finally, Elektra probably has more skill than Li in strict h2h in that her techniques are more refined where Li comes off almost like a bruiser in come respects. Elektra can slice apart the strongest alloys SHIELD has to offer with a rusty katana, I don't think Li would offer much resistance to her sais.

If Elektra effectively uses her TP it could be a stomp in her favor against Li.

If not, then I see this as a draw... They both have potential to end this fight when landing their first attack. Elektra can likely dodge or evade almost everything Li has to offer but at the same time would be hard pressed to close the gap on Li's fast as hell legs without taking one of those "decimates a car or tank in seconds" quick kicks to the face.

Either way it's a good matchup and definitely not a stomp in anyone's favor sans Elektra's effective use of TP. 😉

About time someone posted, although I knew you would. Nevertheless I doubt there will be any "shocking changes" on either side so I won't go into it expecting such.

Firstly as of SF3 (latest canonically) the tiers are:

God: Gill, Oro (Unsealed), Akuma, Shin Bison, and Shin Gouken (if alive).
Top: Ryu, Urien, Sagat, etc.
2nd: Ken, Chun Li (roughly)

And on and on.

Ken hasn't caught up with Ryu since he had his kids. Chun Li isn't quite up to par with Ryu but can give him a good fight. Chun Li is very, very powerful. Elektra is impressive, but from the majority of her showings she simply doesn't match up to Li physically IMO. Not faster, not more attack power, and I don't see her having more skill *especially* if you include Chun Li's ultimate moves. Their world revolves around fighting skill and chi manip and that's where their "powers" come from. Elektra may have some use with her TP, but it isn't going to be an Xavier style shutdown like people suggest in a lot of her threads. After dealing with somone like Bison, I'm sure she has the will to fight it off.

I still give Chun Li a good majority at her highest. If she's on a lower showing they are around equal footing I suppose.

Originally posted by 753
Her brand of mind control is described as manipulation of the ki of others. But assuming she has other telepathic powers of a completely different nature, mind control shouldn't count among them.

The idea that a Chi fighter is more vulnerable to outside Chi manipulation is absurd. Not only do they have more substance, they also have voluntary control over it, unlike regular people. It only stands to reason that it would take an active effort in wrestling control over their lifeforce away from them. Nobody would say Elektra can use that trick on IF because his control over his own Chi > her gimmick.

Are you dense or something? There's no assumption going on. Read Elektra Assassin; she display multiple telepathic abilities and none of it is related to ki manipulation.

It's only absurd to you because it's based on an absurd premise... one that you made up. Nobody would say that because no one would be stupid enough to argue that Elektra's telepathic abilities are exclusive to ki manipulation.

What are you not understanding?
Either Elektra is able to only manipulate ki.. which is pretty far fetched given what she's done to people who don't have, hone or use it.... Or she has telepathic abilities that are not limited to ki "gimmicks"..... one of those is an accurate statement.. one isn't.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Ken hasn't caught up with Ryu since he had his kids. Chun Li isn't quite up to par with Ryu but can give him a good fight. Chun Li is very, very powerful. Elektra is impressive, but from the majority of her showings she simply doesn't match up to Li physically IMO. Not faster, not more attack power, and I don't see her having more skill *especially* if you include Chun Li's ultimate moves. Their world revolves around fighting skill and chi manip and that's where their "powers" come from. Elektra may have some use with her TP, but it isn't going to be an Xavier style shutdown like people suggest in a lot of her threads. After dealing with somone like Bison, I'm sure she has the will to fight it off.

I still give Chun Li a good majority at her highest. If she's on a lower showing they are around equal footing I suppose.

I do think Elektra has faster burst speed and more impressive skill even sometimes inclusive with the use of her chi.. but like you said we probably won't change each others minds so I'll just leave it at that.

Originally posted by jinzin
Chun Li's a powerhouse.
Elektra's a precision...uhhh house..

I do think Elektra has faster burst speed and more impressive skill even sometimes inclusive with the use of her chi.. but like you said we probably won't change each others minds so I'll just leave it at that.

Originally posted by jinzin
Are you dense or something? There's no assumption going on. Read Elektra Assassin; she display multiple telepathic abilities and none of it is related to ki manipulation.

You can just say her mind control isn't telepathy at all, but she does have some telepathy that works through ways other than ki. This is all fine and dandy, but it would exclude her mind control feats from her TP repertoire.

It's only absurd to you because it's based on an absurd premise... one that you made up. Nobody would say that because no one would be stupid enough to argue that Elektra's telepathic abilities are exclusive to ki manipulation.

Her other powers might work just fine, but that's a different matter.

What are you not understanding?
Either Elektra is able to only manipulate ki.. which is pretty far fetched given what she's done to people who don't have, hone or use it.... Or she has telepathic abilities that are not limited to ki "gimmicks"..... one of those is an accurate statement.. one isn't.

The fact that she can manipulate people who do not ki amp does not refute the possibilty that she was using ki control in them either. Everyone has lifeforce, which is what ki is and it should be easier to affect those who can't control their own ki.

Originally posted by 753
She may have other TP powers that do not envolve ki manipulation, this isn't what is in discussion here though. At least one of the powers commonly atributed to her telepathic feats (a main one as far as actual mindraping is concerned) are a form of Ki control and unless another explanation for the mechanism of her mind control powers was explicitly given, there's no reason to assume she has 2 brands of mind control, one that is based on ki and another one that isn't.

You can just say her mind control isn't telepathy at all, but she does have some telepathy that works through ways other than ki. This is all fine and dandy, but it would exclude her mind control feats from her TP repertoire.

I guess she's able to mind swap as a result of Ki manipulation too... 🙄

Originally posted by 753
This was weak. You are the one who made the point that if she controls others' ki with her mind, then ki fighters are more vulnerable to it because they have more ki to manipulate. This is absurd because they also have control over their ki, so it's reasnobale that they can resist outside influence on it. She wouldn't have an easier time controlling IF's ki than she did those ninjas' ki.

Why not? She can easily manipulate a dozen men at once, it stands to reason she would have a much easier time doing it to one person even with a supposed higher control level... which is an assumption on your part that Iron Fist would be able to fight it off.

Just because Reed Richards is smarter than most of the known world on 616 it doesn't make him less likely to get mind raped by Professor X on a bad day... You know who IS? Someone in a berserker rage. Funny that.

Originally posted by 753
Her other powers might work just fine, but that's a different matter.

She may have both powers, but this isn't the point being argued. Ki ampers aren't more vulnerable to ki control.

The fact that she can manipulate people who do not ki amp does not refute the possibilty that she was using ki control in them either. Everyone has lifeforce, which is what ki is and it should be easier to affect those who can't control their own ki.

You apparently think Ki ampers are less vulnerable to ki control..... do you have proof?

Chun Li beats her down. Depending on which version we're using at least.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Chun Li beats her down. Depending on which version we're using at least.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Pretty much. The most overpowered version is likely that Capcom vs SNK manga, they had characters ripping through reality with punches and all kind of stuff. Superman level crap.

As opposed to the Udon comics, where guns are a threat to most of the fighters 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
As opposed to the Udon comics, where guns are a threat to most of the fighters 🙂

Originally posted by jinzin
No it wouldn't.
That's the issue. You're telling us that it's an assumption that Elektra's able to pull a huge mass of feats simply based on manipulation of ki.... Which is a rediculous argument when half the people she's mind raped are not ki users or are described in depth as a legitimate feat of telepathic ability.

I guess she's able to mind swap as a result of Ki manipulation too... 🙄

Why not? She can easily manipulate a dozen men at once, it stands to reason she would have a much easier time doing it to one person even with a supposed higher control level... which is an assumption on your part that Iron Fist would be able to fight it off.

Just because Reed Richards is smarter than most of the known world on 616 it doesn't make him less likely to get mind raped by Professor X on a bad day... You know who IS? Someone in a berserker rage. Funny that.

IF has control over his chi, regular people don't. It makes sense that he can shrug off external manipulation of his ki since he can manipulate it himself. It's the same as characters with a degree of control over their own molecules resisiting matter manipulation. IIRC he already has some feats similar to this. I'll look them up.

Yeah it IS the point being argued, because it's the point YOU brought up. You want to insist her telepathic powers are a direct contribution of ki manipulation and exclusive to it.... which for anyone who's actually read assassin... knows is bullshit. It's that simple.

You apparently think Ki ampers are less vulnerable to ki control..... do you have proof?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Pretty much. The most overpowered version is likely that Capcom vs SNK manga, they had characters ripping through reality with punches and all kind of stuff. Superman level crap.

yeah. that was crazy.

Originally posted by 753
Read the post, I said it doesnt matter whther or not she has other powers, because there is no reason to assume she mind controls others through more than one mechanism. Everyone has ki, it makes no difference that they're not ki users.

Yeah that's the same thing facepalm. Intelligence has nothing to do with telepathy and berserker rage has even less to do with this discussion.

IF has control over his chi, regular people don't. It makes sense that he can shrug off external manipulation of his ki since he can manipulate it himself. It's the same as characters with a degree of control over their own molecules resisiting matter manipulation. IIRC he already has some feats similar to this. I'll look them up.

No reading comprehension, I see. As I said, she may very well have TP powers of a totally different nature, but the mind control she displayed against the hand isn't among them - even though people mostly refer to mindcontrol as a TP feat for her - and you claimed Ki ampers would be more vulnerable to ki manipulation from her, which is silly.

I based it on common sense, but i'll look something up. Do you have any evidence that they'd be more vulnerable?

So you have no proof then.. that's all you had to say....

And this plea towards common sense is completely built on speculation to begin with so that too is a fail.

Look, you tried to claim that Elektra's TP is exclusive to Ki manipulation... like someone said earlier... She can manipulate ki... she ALSO has TP. And anyone with a passing familiarity of her character would know this.
Her telepathic attributes are gone into IN DEPTH in Elektra Assassin.

Would you like to try to prove that Elektra can swap minds with other people based on a form of Ki manipulation? Because that's what your argument assumes... That the illusions she can cast, the ability to block telepathy, the ability to swap minds for months at a time, mind wipe people etc etc are ALL the result of Ki manipulation and not real telepathy.... It's a stretch and a MAJOR one at that. Especially when SHIELD files specifically state that she has telepathic abilities... 😐

Now this non sequitur we're on at the moment is almost too rediculous to warrant a response because you're failing to get the point.

It's an admittedly bullshit argument based off of an equally bullshit premise.....
But if her telepathic abilities were exclusive to KI alone how come she's able to use it with Logan?

The reason I brought up intelligence is because when it comes to telepathy having more brainpower, and more ability to use your brain doesn't automatically make you less likely to be manipulated. There's no proof that Rand would be less likely to succumb to it than anyone else. Speculation? sure... but no proof.

The issue is that the proof you HAVE brought to set up this ridiculous premise also driectly states that Elektra's lashing out with her MIND.... It doesn't say she's overwhelming them with her ki, but taking their ki... with her mind...

The bottem line is that she has telepathic abilities that are not exclusive to ki or tied in with it in anyway as she's proven.