Kubik vs Tiamut the Dreaming Celestial

Originally posted by zopzop
You are correct. Maker purposely took mortal form and allowed itself to have certain weaknesses (particularly mental ones, Oracle of the Imperial Guard shut Maker's mind down and that's how it was imprisoned in the Klynn in the first place).

Also, Thanos did say it was still a universal threat. But when the Annihilation Wave event occurred, and most of the Klynn prisoners were either free or killed, Surfer and Galactus were having a conversation about the escapees. Surfer wondered about the threat the Maker now posed, but Galactus referred to something FAR worse than the Maker being imprisoned there. That was Aegis and Teneberous.

So according to Galactus, Aegis/Teneberous > Maker.

Which given the comment by Kubik concerning the Celestials is very likely to also apply for the Proemial Gods, that where basically doing on another scale what the Celestials are doing currently.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes and what exactly was affected? A potted plant gained consciousness, a Watcher goes blind, a world is destroyed, some 2d beings gain a 3rd dimension, and a statue on the Skrull homeworld cries blood.

Odin/Seth have done more when they fought. Aaron and Uatu when they threw down, it rippled across every plane of existence. Two Thors merely clangin' hammers shook the universe.

I'm just not impressed by what was shown on panel.

Don't be dense man. That scan shows that the aftershocks of the struggle of two beings that have only fraction of the power of a full cube being were warping reality across dimensions.

Destroying things (as odin and seth did) is one thing, but granting sentience to non thinking lifeforms, and expanding a 2-D dimension into 3D implies complexity, not just force.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Don't be dense man. That scan shows that the aftershocks of the struggle of two beings that have only fraction of the power of a full cube being were warping reality across dimensions.

Destroying things (as odin and seth did) is one thing, but granting sentience to non thinking lifeforms, and expanding a 2-D dimension into 3D implies complexity, not just force.

Odin/Seth shook the multiverse, destroyed galaxies and reignited long dead stars. It was stated on panel that all reality was in danger and dying.

So a blinded Watcher, a talking plant, a bleeding statue, a destroyed world and renegade food sorta pales compared to that.

Two Thors banging hammers shook the universe, imagine if they got serious?

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Don't be dense man. That scan shows that the aftershocks of the struggle of two beings that have only fraction of the power of a full cube being were warping reality across dimensions.

Destroying things (as odin and seth did) is one thing, but granting sentience to non thinking lifeforms, and expanding a 2-D dimension into 3D implies complexity, not just force.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I find the Maker showing against Thanos as being very strange, because in the same comic it's stated by Thanos, iirc, that Maker still has the power of roll back the universe to the crunch or something like that. I was also under the impression that the only reason Thanos won was because of Maker's failing mental health.

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The Makers failing mental status was the sole reason why Thanos was able to beat it; if the Beyonder personality was in control, then Thanos would have been annihilated...

Originally posted by zopzop
Odin/Seth shook the multiverse, destroyed galaxies and reignited long dead stars. It was stated on panel that all reality was in danger and dying.

So a blinded Watcher, a talking plant, a bleeding statue, a destroyed world and renegade food sorta pales compared to that.

Two Thors banging hammers shook the universe, imagine if they got serious?

Goes to show that some writers use hyperbole to the extreme; two high heralds shaking the universe!?

LoL...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Goes to show that some writers use hyperbole to the extreme; two high heralds shaking the universe!?

LoL...

Trust me LoM, I think it's moronic too but it's right there on panel. It was stated AND shown 🙁

Hence me not being impressed with the MM/Beyonder scan.

Originally posted by Galan007
To my knowledge it was a full-fledged universe.

Nah it was a pocket dimension. Lacks the cosmic hierarchy and structure of full fledged marvel universes.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
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The Makers failing mental status was the sole reason why Thanos was able to beat it; if the Beyonder personality was in control, then Thanos would have been annihilated...

Originally posted by quanchi112
False. Thanos beat her and actually could have physically killed her. Thanos easily defeated her with the powers she held making it an awesome feat.

Dude...

Thanos even commented on the Maker making itself vulnerable; that thing 1 shot Thanos in there 1st encounter and attacked far less forcibly when he 'beat' her (dont be a fool...compare the magnitude of that initial attack vs the others )...

The Maker actually beat itself due to only wielding a small fraction of its power and making itself vulnerable; again, if the Beyonders personality was in control it would have held back nothing and would have annihilated Thanos...

Stop riding Thanos's c**k...you know its true.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
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The Makers failing mental status was the sole reason why Thanos was able to beat it; if the Beyonder personality was in control, then Thanos would have been annihilated...

Yeah, the Maker in no way compares to what we know a full powered version is capable of. It used only a tiny fraction of its true power in the fight and was deliberately mentally and physically weak in that form.

Originally posted by zopzop
Odin/Seth shook the multiverse, destroyed galaxies and reignited long dead stars. It was stated on panel that all reality was in danger and dying.

Beyonder and MM's fight trembled reality across space & TIME, from the Quantum to the TRANS-MULTIVERSAL. Same fight as the Odin and Seth fight.

So a blinded Watcher, a talking plant, a bleeding statue, a destroyed world and renegade food sorta pales compared to that.

Most mages in Marvel can't bring consciousness to non-sentient life forms nor cause forms in a 2D universe to take 3D form and beware aware of it. No skyfather has displayed this sort of feat either. And Loki with all his magic has never to my know done this sort of thing. This was a result of a battle, not even them trying these thing.

Here they fight on every planes of existence as well.

Two Thors banging hammers shook the universe, imagine if they got serious?

This shouldn't even be brought up. That's pure hyperbole because we all know Thor fight with Beta Ray Bill, or most in his tier, the majority of the time never destroy even a continent. Cosmic Cubes and Cube Beings themselves do insane feats on average. Even the Maker shrank people and koed Thanos. There's few instances where Thanos has been koed.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nah it was a pocket dimension. Lacks the cosmic hierarchy and structure of full fledged marvel universes.

No reason to assume it was anything less than what it was stated to be (SEVERAL times, mind you.)

Regarding the lack of a hierarchy: it was my understanding that Beyonder literally IS his universe -- he embodies every aspect of it:
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/3871/ff31916.jpg

ie. his universe is as he wills it to be. No hierarchy would be necessary.

Because of said omniscience/omnipotence, Beyonder (obviously) knows absolutely everything that can or will happen in his universe. The sense of always knowing the outcome of ALL made Beyonder a very bored fellow... That cosmic boredom is why he carried out his cross-multiversal tampering during the Protege affair:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2307/guardiansofthegalaxy502.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007

Regarding the lack of a hierarchy: it was my understanding that Beyonder literally IS his universe -- he embodies every aspect of it:
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/3871/ff31916.jpg

ie. his universe is as he wills it to be. No hierarchy would be necessary.

This is exactly my point.

The Beyonder who by canon is an incomplete cosmic cube, a being inferior to a single Celestial by several orders of magnitude created from his own energies a universe. Therefore it stands to reason that said universe is going to be significantly smaller in scale and complexity than one created naturally by the Big Bang.

I'll have to scroll through the handbooks to post a scan but there is a definition that pertains to a pocket universe being a dimension created outside the Big Bang, one smaller in scale that doesnt share the cosmic hierarchy of the mainstream realities.

all pocket dimensions have been refered to as universes atleast once.....

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is exactly my point.

The Beyonder who by canon is an incomplete cosmic cube, a being inferior to a single Celestial by several orders of magnitude created from his own energies a universe. Therefore it stands to reason that said universe is going to be significantly smaller in scale and complexity than one created naturally by the Big Bang.

I'll have to scroll through the handbooks to post a scan but there is a definition that pertains to a pocket universe being a dimension created outside the Big Bang, one smaller in scale that doesnt share the cosmic hierarchy of the mainstream realities.

Originally posted by Galan007
Until I see evidence that Beyonder's creation was a pocket dimension, then I will have to keep assuming that it is what it was stated to be -- a universe/reality.

Marvunapp calls the Beyond Realm a pocket realm:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/kosmoscube.htm

It stands to reason Galan that a universe created by a "minor omnipotent" less powerful than a single Celestial is going to be less grand in scale than one created by the Big Bang.

^ Beyonder created his universe before he'd been retconned into a "minor omnipotent" -- and though Beyonder himself was downsized into a lesser being, that doesn't mean his universe also downsized by proxy. For instance, many of his high-end feats (such as eradicating the concept of Death) are still canon to this day.

So yeah... Suck it. 😖mart:

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Beyonder created his universe before he'd been retconned into a "minor omnipotent" -- and though Beyonder himself was downsized into a lesser being, that doesn't mean his universe also downsized by proxy. For instance, many of his high-end feats (such as eradicating the concept of Death) are still canon to this day.

So yeah... Suck it. 😖mart:

You'd perhaps have an argument if his universe wasnt specifically singled out and referred to as a pocket realm. The creation of a universe is not one of the things left unaltered by his demotion. 😛

Hes less powerful than the abstracts who are themselves just components of the standard mainstream realities so it stands to reason that a reality created by himself would be smaller in scale..."pocket" 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Marvunapp calls the Beyond Realm a pocket realm:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/kosmoscube.htm

It stands to reason Galan that a universe created by a "minor omnipotent" less powerful than a single Celestial is going to be less grand in scale than one created by the Big Bang.

lmao. That link isn't even accurate. That's his opinion of that matter. He references FF 319 and yet no where in it does it say pocket universe. Numerous times has it been mentioned as a universe and never a pocket dimension. GS failing again? Not surprising.