Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Well I can hardly give credit to a game if you need to mod something away- besides which, as the game was not built from the ground up for a static difficulty system that you meet the match of by levelling, just modding the scaling away only eases the immediate irritation; it still leaves the design issue in place. If they do it ground up this time, it will be better. As I mentioned in my review, it's not just the philosophy behind the scaling system that is bad- though it certainly is- but it is also in the player behaviour it created (i.e. everyone sticking their useless skills as primaries to AVOID levelling- if you create that sort of behaviour, you cocked up.) 'Resulting player behaviour' is also why I have an issue with Fire Emblem's unit death system; it is an issue a surprising number of game designers ignore. As an RP designer, I am very used to the concept that players will find the easiest way from A to B in your system, which is often massively at variance with your intent.

Not that I literally disliked the games, but I was always irritated by the inane praise of 'best game ever' it was getting from the professional press at the time, despite many glaring flaws.

Though I feel time has changed perspective; other games are being remembered more strongly now than Oblivion.

I agree the scaling system was terrible and took away from the fun of it.

As for more restrictions. I do agree the fewer choices you give players, the more coherent and detailed a story you can make. I don't know if I would equate that to it being better though as a gaming experience. Of course that could just be personal tastes.

I rather enjoyed having the feeling of being able to do everything. In my opinion with the ES series my only limitations with character play and styling was my own self-imposed ones. Which I rather liked.

I also liked Morrowind better than Oblivion.

The Arena in Oblivion was a personal disappointment to me at the end. If you had chosen to do the quest that he offered, you wouldn't even have an Epic Ending fight. You would feel bad, but it's a good way to take advantage. On one play through, my brother cranked up the difficulty to the highest, kept about 5 swords in his inventory, then went to town. He gained a crap load of Blade levels from it.
If they make anything like the Arena for Skyrim, I hope they make it better.

By becoming the champion of the arena however you awaken an evil, an ancient demon from the darkest pits of hell. Adoring fan O_O
That alone makes me not want a new arena.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well I can hardly give credit to a game if you need to mod something away

I'll disagree here, though I may have to play semantics to do so. It's not the developer's intent that I care about, it's my personal experience. And if I enjoy that experience, regardless of what I had to do to achieve it, then the game was a success. This is especially true in single-player games, where changing the game doesn't affect the balance of my character compared to others that might be playing.

The term "credit" muddies things though, because at that point I'm crediting both the game developers and the mod community, so it's not a credit to the game necessarily. And I do recognize the flaw. So we're technically in agreement, I just don't see as much of an issue with it. I ran a bunch of mods for Oblivion, as I do for a lot of PC games. As long as I'm not getting an unfair advantage out of it, it heightens my enjoyment without cheapening the experience.

Well I consider my critique to be that of the game as produced by the developers. And, as I said, it's an imperfect solution as a working one would have to have been in from the ground up.

Frankly, I think that a mod is a very weird platform from which to call a game a success. I am glad you enjoyed the mod but it is rather irrelevant to a review of the game, and in an example like this, when looking at the possible virtues of a new game, you most certainly cannot view it in the sense of "Oh, it will be ok as mods will improve it." It's also objectively true that a game that did not need significant modding to be as good as it could be is better than one that did.

I like modding games. I like the modding advantages you get with games like Fallout 3 and with Oblivion where you can gain a cool looking outfit like Spartan Armor or a demonic custom made gear; being able to dual wield swords. It's just so much fun, yes. In fact, Oblivion mods for me score a 15/10 lol (10/10 realistic). But the Oblivion game itself, minus mods, scores low. The game play was enjoyable first time I picked it up but the more that you play it, the more you realize "wow.. this is the same thing as always". An assignment to kill a necromancer, an Assignment to kill a few rats, An assignment to run to the top of a mountain and grab a book from a corpse.

Oblivion itself could have been much more graphically detailed. It is supposed to be like TES' form of Hell, but honestly? It just looks to me like the inside of a volcano. There's lava and rock and demonic beings with swords. Basic volcano to me XD

Aside from that part even! You have a mission to go to each town and shut down the Oblivion gate that stands right outside it. I found MULTIPLE problems with this.
1. All of the gates on the inside tend to be random EXCEPT specific ones which detail a very specific quest (like the Bruma Gate).
1.1. This leaves very little challenge as you could save before entering, go inside; if you don't like how the layout for this one is, just load up the game and go back in. I've done it a few times myself just because I didn't want to go through the caves to get to the tower.
2. Outside of Chorrol there are TWO gates. Directly outside of it. One from the South Entrance, and one from the East Entrance. I just don't feel right about destroying one and letting the other remain sense the Southern One is the only one you'll have a quest for.
3. The detail leaves such cheap ways to do things. I know someone else has done this. I've entered the gate and before I do anything, I look for shortcuts. I find a rock. Okay.. Jump on the rock, jump onto the mountain edge, walk through the open sections-- BAM! I'm at the tower with less then 10 minutes spent and no monsters having been fought. It leaves little purpose of even having the caves.
4. I love this part just because of how much I hate it. I've timed myself on this; you can destroy an Oblivion Gate without even drawing your sword but maybe once. When you get to the core room, you don't have to fight anything. Run up the side and click the Sigel Stone. Gate closed.

I could go on for a while but eh. I want to see Skyrim give challenge! I want to see dragons! I want to see Graphics that when I see them, it makes me want to fall to the ground crying! I want to see!! A RAT PARTY!!!!!!!! Wait what?

Yeah I agree with you there, Oblivion gates were boring and repetitive. In fact I ran through the main campaign as fast as I could just so they would all shut, I hated that the great scenery would all of a sudden go away because I got near one of the hundred gates across the place 😬

Originally posted by General_Iroh
Yeah I agree with you there, Oblivion gates were boring and repetitive. In fact I ran through the main campaign as fast as I could just so they would all shut, I hated that the great scenery would all of a sudden go away because I got near one of the hundred gates across the place 😬

One of my friends went through the entire thing and destroyed every single Oblivion gate that appeared (that she was able to enter at least)

Originally posted by Phoenix3068
One of my friends went through the entire thing and destroyed every single Oblivion gate that appeared (that she was able to enter at least)

wow, and she didn't have Midas Magic installed?

Nope, they played it legit =\

I destroyed every single Oblivion Gate. ._.

We can't all have massive balls like you 'Bro.

True enough.

I mostly did it for the Sigil Stones. And to say I could. estahuh

I couldn't bare it. I went into 3 then said "Screw it" and turned off the TV. I hate the towers because I tend to go in circles for 30 minutes before I find the right door to the right tower.

Originally posted by Phoenix3068
Nope, they played it legit =\

I hope your friend won't take offense and you neither Nemebro but, a bit obsessed maybe...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well I consider my critique to be that of the game as produced by the developers. And, as I said, it's an imperfect solution as a working one would have to have been in from the ground up.

Frankly, I think that a mod is a very weird platform from which to call a game a success. I am glad you enjoyed the mod but it is rather irrelevant to a review of the game, and in an example like this, when looking at the possible virtues of a new game, you most certainly cannot view it in the sense of "Oh, it will be ok as mods will improve it." It's also objectively true that a game that did not need significant modding to be as good as it could be is better than one that did.

Agreed, almost in full. I don't disagree with the criticisms in your review, and you certainly can't review a game based on mods. I'm just looking at the game from a different perspective. Because many, many PC games have vibrant mod communities. When I look at how I view a game, I have to take that into account. But no, I wouldn't reflect that in a review were I to write one.

Like I said, we're mostly in agreement, I'm just focusing on a different aspect of the issue.

I say Oblivion receives a 7/10 legit and a 9/10 Modded as the mods don't so much change a few of my issues with it (mainly combat styling, but still, 9/10 is a good review)

Originally posted by Utrigita
I hope your friend won't take offense and you neither Nemebro but, a bit obsessed maybe...

lol she would just blush if you said that, she wouldn't mind, she might take it as a compliment! XD

I still quite enjoyed Oblivion, with and without mods.

Oblivion took 6 months of my life and I didn't even touch the main campaign.

Looking forward to this hope the levelling system isn't so game breaking.