morrowind was a lot better actually.
in oblivion the levelling up system was terrible. instead of you playing the game, the game would play you and would only allow you the better items when you character was high enough level wise.
Morrowind on the other hand, you could get the best weapon in the game at level 1, it would be bloody difficult but it was possible. In oblivion the enemies would level up with you, so you wasn't really making much progress.
Thats what i love about morrowind, if you was foolish enough to go to places where you had no right to be, you would get your ass kicked. But at least you had the choice. In oblivion you had your hand held throughout the game.
Missions were a lot harder and challenging in morrowind aswell. they would tell you the details and point you in the general location but after that you was on your own. In oblivion it was the case of going to location, doing mission and coming back for reward. it wasnt hard
That's part of the issue with Oblivion's insane level system. You might think that as the world levelled up with you, the difficulty curve would be constant. In fact, though, depending on what primary skills you choose, levelling up could effectively make you weaker because the world powered up more than you did, and hence make the game annoyingly hard for some.
The lengths that people went to AVOID levelling in that game demonstrates how broken the system was.
Originally posted by Phanteros
Yeah your right wasn't checking the game informer. It turns out there be no Pole ares or possibly anything on the above.
Not quite correct, we know from ingame footage that wielding a sword and a magic spell (in either hand at the same time) is going to be featured. I also believe I read somewhere that Bethesda are working on two spells at the same time, making it possible to make combos, but they want to experiment with it first, though I must admit that I see some pretty awesome combos 😄 (invisible fireball anyone 😛 )
wielding double magic
Destruction spells are now more flexible tools: a fire spell is not just a fireball, it can also be used as a flamethrower or to place fire traps on the ground. And Bethesda say they’re hoping to let you combine them with one another when you wield different spells in each hand, though exactly how won’t be nailed down until they’re sure they can do it
source: http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/18/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-preview/
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's part of the issue with Oblivion's insane level system. You might think that as the world levelled up with you, the difficulty curve would be constant. In fact, though, depending on what primary skills you choose, levelling up could effectively make you weaker because the world powered up more than you did, and hence make the game annoyingly hard for some.The lengths that people went to AVOID levelling in that game demonstrates how broken the system was.
Avoiding sleep. 😛
Easy enough, but kind of interfered with immersion.
I'm not so sure Ush. I read a compelling article recently that brought up Oblivion's leveling system among a few other games, and the point of the article is that immersion in a game world isn't just the developer's responsibility. It's the player's as well. If you want to bug Oblivion's system, that's your thing. Without even being aware of it until recently, I played through the game knowing about such exploits, and never once thought to employ them. It's the roleplayer in me, I suppose.
So really, I feel like the system is only completely broken if such routes are the only things available to you, or if it's in a multiplayer game that favors some players over others (which it obviously isn't). An immesive experience free from exploits is also available, so I see much less fault with the leveling system than some. Anyone can race through a game and beat it in as effecient a manner as possible, Oblivion or otherwise. But the point is to enjoy the games, which then comes down to how you personally interact with the world, as it should be with an RPG.
No, that's unhelpful from any reasonable game design perspective. The levelling system actively does not work correctly. Most players will be forced to play it the crappy way that is default because most players do not mod games or exploit the system in ridiculous ways; they play as they were meant to. And they got shafted because the game is a lesser game as a result of that. Some found it far too easy, some far too hard, and none of that was their fault; it was the fault of bad design. Those who enjoyed powering up their character to meet certain threats got the shaft as well. It actively impeded enjoyment of the game for a LOT of people, when other approaches would not have done this.
Any game which encouraged players to FIGHT the mechanics rather than enjoy them has made a mistake. Any game that leaves other players mystified as to why they got less powerful as they levelled up has made a mistake. And whilst it's not literally a mistake that the scaled levelling means the most powerful weapons and armour in the game can be found on random bandits once you are a high level (rather than in, say, the depths of special dungeons), it's still bloody horrible design.
The levelling system in Oblivion was a cock-up, is widely recognised as a cock-up and is not being used again. If they did use it again, the game would be much worse for it. Trying to excuse it on some sort of "it's the players' responsibly as well" is just not right. It is not the players' responsibility to get the game design right and they have a legitimate expectation that the game should be designed properly. The designers cocked up this system and deserved heavy criticism for it.
Sadly, lie Bioware do these days, they are still using some scaling, but it won't be as truly terrible as the system in Oblivion.
Well honestly I consistently could punch Deathclaws to death by level 10, but yes there was scaling.
I think how it worked was that when you went to a new area, enemies scaled to your level, but they remained fixed at that level. Areas outside that area were not affected.
I also believe some enemies were exempt. Deathclaws IIRC are included under this.
But yeah, it was confirmed level scaling would be "like Fallout 3, not Oblivion."
to those who still dont understand how bad oblivion was compared to morrowind, then read this
http://lvls.wordpress.com/2010/06/03/elder-scrolls-versus-morrowind-vs-oblivion/
Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, that's unhelpful from any reasonable game design perspective. The levelling system actively does not work correctly. Most players will be forced to play it the crappy way that is default because most players do not mod games or exploit the system in ridiculous ways; they play as they were meant to. And they got shafted because the game is a lesser game as a result of that. Some found it far too easy, some far too hard, and none of that was their fault; it was the fault of bad design. Those who enjoyed powering up their character to meet certain threats got the shaft as well. It actively impeded enjoyment of the game for a LOT of people, when other approaches would not have done this.Any game which encouraged players to FIGHT the mechanics rather than enjoy them has made a mistake. Any game that leaves other players mystified as to why they got less powerful as they levelled up has made a mistake. And whilst it's not literally a mistake that the scaled levelling means the most powerful weapons and armour in the game can be found on random bandits once you are a high level (rather than in, say, the depths of special dungeons), it's still bloody horrible design.
The levelling system in Oblivion was a cock-up, is widely recognised as a cock-up and is not being used again. If they did use it again, the game would be much worse for it. Trying to excuse it on some sort of "it's the players' responsibly as well" is just not right. It is not the players' responsibility to get the game design right and they have a legitimate expectation that the game should be designed properly. The designers cocked up this system and deserved heavy criticism for it.
Sadly, lie Bioware do these days, they are still using some scaling, but it won't be as truly terrible as the system in Oblivion.
The point I was originally against was that the system was broken because there were easily defined exploits. And I'll still maintain that that alone isn't nearly enough to make a system bad.
Your point that people simply trying to play the game ended up with it too easy or too hard, however, raises an entirely different issue. When there is a broken experience without deliberately trying to break it, yes, there's a problem.
Points like high-level loot off of bandits is an entirely different matter. We're in complete agreement there. You're talking more about the game, I'm talking about one aspect of it. Yes, various aspects of games are interrelated. But putting good loot in logical places is clearly a separate issue.
So I should have clarified a bit. I'm not against Oblivion's leveling system, flaws and all, because it IS about how you choose to play the game, making it a true RPG. However, only a fool would say it needs no alternations or failsafes in place to make it more enjoyable for the casual gamer. It's a shame it'll likely be scrapped, though, because of the negative reaction. I'm tried of just putting points into a stat after I kill (X) monsters. With any luck, they simply temper their old system with some logical ceilings and blocks in order to prevent such disparity.
And I'll still maintain that immersion is a player's job as much as a developers. Dev's can't anticipate every play style, every gamer. hey give us a template, we explore. Obvious bugs should be fixed, but I honestly think that a game in which exploits are available can be more exciting that one where there isn't since it gives players that option who want it. So long as it isn't so obvious or inavoidable that it affects gamer who don't intend it.
IGN: Is the auto-leveling system from Oblivion that leveled enemies alongside your character returning in Skyrim? If not, will there be a modified version, and what informed the changes in the design?
Todd Howard: We've always had some amount of that in our games, from Arena to Fallout 3. You do need some in a game like this, it's just a matter of how and when you do it. It's clear Oblivion had places it didn't work well. That's something I think we addressed well in Fallout 3, so Skyrim works similarly to Fallout 3. We want peaks and valleys, where sometimes you're really challenged, and other times you feel really powerful. The trick is telling a player in a wide open game, without locking stuff off, that "this area is too hard for you, come back later."