Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, I don't know if I would word it quite like that, but I suppose that's true. For their argument to be logically valid, they have to prove that God's actions were unjust. They can't do that, so their argument isn't valid.
Well, to be absolute right, sure. But they can make axioms and then deduct from them. Or they can find the beliefs that are implied to be God's morals either through the bible or believers in that God and show that they are contradictory.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, to be absolute right, sure. But they can make axioms and then deduct from them. Or they can find the beliefs that are implied to be God's morals either through the bible or believers in that God and show that they are contradictory.
Which is what they are attempting to do, I believe. But at best they are saying "God's actions were unjust because I see no justification for them." Which isn't a valid argument.
I love it when atheists complain about God being too harsh. "B-bu-but this millennia-old deity must conform to our contemporary liberal notions of kindness and mercy that have been born of an easy life made capable by the growth and maturation of Western civilization which is itself founded upon Christianity!"
God is the giver of life, and He is the taker of it. He can do as He pleases.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I love it when atheists complain about God being too harsh. "B-bu-but this millennia-old deity must conform to our contemporary liberal notions of kindness and mercy that have been born of an easy life made capable by the growth and maturation of Western civilization which is itself founded upon Christianity!"God is the giver of life, and He is the taker of it. He can do as He pleases.
He can, but we can't change the meanings of words to include him. Mercy, Justice, Forgiveness, etc, all mean things, if Religious people use these words and the actions they claim their deity to perform are not in line with these words, then they just do not apply to that deity.
You are right, the deity can do whatever the hell it pleases, but you can not change the meaning of well defined words.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I love it when atheists complain about God being too harsh. "B-bu-but this millennia-old deity must conform to our contemporary liberal notions of kindness and mercy that have been born of an easy life made capable by the growth and maturation of Western civilization which is itself founded upon Christianity!"God is the giver of life, and He is the taker of it. He can do as He pleases.
LOL how can atheists complain that God is too harsh when they don't believe in him.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Prove that these actions were absolutely unjust. Simply saying "there is no justification because I don't see one" is not logically valid.You have what? Proven that God's actions were unjust? Where? When? You've listed actions you think are unjust, but have provided no reason to believe they are unjust outside of "I think they are."
Again, you have to prove that these actions were absolutely unjust or your argument falls flat. [/B]
What are you talking about? Your arguement is the exact same. The only reason you say his actions are all just is because you think they are based off of a book. I actually base it off of real things like any moral code in existence besides some satanist one. I say they are unjust beacause of said moral codes and God's own words and rules. He said Though shalt not kill, yet He committed mass genocide. You are the one not being logical. It was your God's own words that these things were immoral and wrong and yet HE does them. I see no flaw in that arguement. How come it is unjust for us but not for him?
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I love it when atheists complain about God being too harsh. "B-bu-but this millennia-old deity must conform to our contemporary liberal notions of kindness and mercy that have been born of an easy life made capable by the growth and maturation of Western civilization which is itself founded upon Christianity!"God is the giver of life, and He is the taker of it. He can do as He pleases.
I have no stutter by the way 😛 It was his own notions of kindness and mercy he is in contadiction to. Not too mention, Even God must have thought he was wrong at some point since a new, gentler, testament came out changing the rules a bit. So much for MR. Infallible.
Originally posted by socool8520
What are you talking about? Your arguement is the exact same. The only reason you say his actions are all just is because you think they are based off of a book. I actually base it off of real things like any moral code in existence besides some satanist one. I say they are unjust beacause of said moral codes and God's own words and rules. He said Though shalt not kill, yet He committed mass genocide. You are the one not being logical. It was your God's own words that these things were immoral and wrong and yet HE does them. I see no flaw in that arguement. How come it is unjust for us but not for him?
Because He is God and we are humans. The ten commandments applies to US not to God. It works differently.
And I don't have to prove that His actions are just because I'm not making the claim. You are claiming His actions are unjust, not me. You have to provide reasons to support your claim. I'm simply asking you to back up the claim you made. So far, you have provided no reasons outside of your own opinion.
Let me ask you. Is killing one person to save a thousand a morally correct choice? Of course it is.
So is it not possible that God might allow suffering so that some good might come out of it? Is that even possible? Because unless you show that it is impossible that Gods actions produced good, or were justified, you argument does not hold up. I'm still waiting for your proof.
A non-believer that rejects Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is condemn already John 3:16-18! YOu as non-Believer have been told by friends or love ones of the love Jesus Christ and you turn your back, you are storing wrath of God against you, for you have denied his free gift his only Begotten Son of God. Too denied JEsus Christ is to denied the Father who is in heaven, since Jesus, the Father, and Holy Spirit are one you are rejecting God himself.
Now if you have never heard of Jesus Christ, then God will judge by your heart and your laws, for God is fair. God has written the moral code on every mans heart, you know right from wrong. In Judgment nobody will have an excuses, there is Book on every person that have lives in that book has your deeds, If u accept Jesus as Lord ans Savior that Book will never be open, it will be toss in the deepest ocean never to be brought against you.
Now you reject Jesus Christ, that book will be open, and God will show you everything that you did and I mean everything and you or anybody else will have no excuses.
It's hard for me to believe in a all knowing and kind God that allows small children to suffer and die. However, God didn't do that, his children did. So do he really "allow" those small children to suffer and die or was it the actions of his own children that caused that? Obviously, the latter.
So I'm back at square one of knowing the nature of God. If God is really super just and benevolent, then a non-believer will be forgiven quite easily if they still lived their lives by what they deemed as "good" and "just."
I see God as a very passive influence doing very little in his children's lives. Just enough to make a difference, but not enough that people can know for sure if it was Him.
Rabbi Hillel, one of the great Talmudic sages of the first century BCE, was once asked (so the story goes) to sum up Judaism. His response: 'What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah. All the rest is commentary.'
No mention of 'God'.
I've always taken this to mean that, what God 'wants' more than anything else -- more than even believing in and worshipping 'Him' -- is for us to be nice to each other. Period.
As such, to address this thread, I conclude (for this and other reasons) that a kind nonbeliever will still 'go to heaven'.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It's hard for me to believe in a all knowing and kind God that allows small children to suffer and die. However, God didn't do that, his children did. So do he really "allow" those small children to suffer and die or was it the actions of his own children that caused that? Obviously, the latter.So I'm back at square one of knowing the nature of God. If God is really super just and benevolent, then a non-believer will be forgiven quite easily if they still lived their lives by what they deemed as "good" and "just."
I see God as a very passive influence doing very little in his children's lives. Just enough to make a difference, but not enough that people can know for sure if it was Him.
You need to worried about yourself and your relationship with God, God is not passive, he allowed things to happen and acts when the time is right. God says in Isaiah my ways are not your ways my thoughts are not your thoughts.
Originally posted by Mindship
Rabbi Hillel, one of the great Talmudic sages of the first century BCE, was once asked (so the story goes) to sum up Judaism. His response: 'What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah. All the rest is commentary.'No mention of 'God'.
I've always taken this to mean that, what God 'wants' more than anything else -- more than even believing in and worshipping 'Him' -- is for us to be nice to each other. Period.
As such, to address this thread, I conclude (for this and other reasons) that a kind nonbeliever will still 'go to heaven'.
No he wont the Bible says so, who cares what Rabbi Hillel says he is not God. Jesus Christ states: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18 KJV
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" -2nd Thessalonians 1:8
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -John 14:6
There is only one sin which CANNOT be forgiven--rejecting Jesus Christ as your Savior. In other words, none of your sins can be forgiven apart from the precious blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:22). God is willing to forgive a person of ANY sin, except the sin of not coming to God the Father through the cross of Jesus Christ. Jesus stated in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." There is no salvation apart from God our Savior... "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour" (Isaiah 43:10,11).
Originally posted by the DarkoneBut he understood the Bible better than you do. All is God. There is nothing else.
No he wont the Bible says so, who cares what Rabbi Hillel says he is not God.
"The entire earth is filled with His presence" (Isaiah 6:3)
"There is no place void of Him" (Tikkunei Zohar 57)
Interesting choice of screen name, btw, for someone who wants to shed light. The Dark One Cometh? (Yu-Gi-Oh, episode 215-218)