The only reason Fernus was capable of defeating the Justice League on his own was because of the fact that they all, for the most part, had their vulnerabilities to telepathy; hence the reason Batman re-enlisted Plastic Man after helping him get back his powers and mind-set.
So, this brings me to my point; Apocalypse; in addition to being virtually immune to telepathy (unless there is some bull shit plot device like in Search for Cyclops when Jean used her bond and 'love' with Cyclops to get in Apoc's head and rip out his essence from Cyke), can do everything Plastic Man (Plastic Man was essential in defeating Fernus) did during the Trial by Fire arc, and much, much more.
Apocalypse imo, but good fight.
If Apocalypse ever demonstrated Plastic Man's capacity for instantly shape shifting, as well as Plastic Man's immunity to damn near everything (nowadays anyways) that may be relevant.
Plastic Man had the success that he did against Fernus because (according to Bats, anyways) Plastic Man was inspiration given form- that is, shape shifting is his second nature and he can immediately, apparently unconsciously assume a great many forms, which he demonstrated in the fight. Apocalypse has never shown to shape shift so fast, with such an immediate and diverse array of forms.
Further, Plastic Man was only able to occupy Fernus physically while the rest of the team actually worked to overpower him. Since Apocalypse lacks Plastic Man's ability to stalemate and doesn't have the rest of the Justice League with him, any comparison between that battle and this theoretical one falls short.
Finally, while Fernus required telepathy to defeat the entire Justice League, he's not up against them here, so...
Fernus wins for all the same reasons that Martian Manhunter would, only more so.
Originally posted by Existere
If Apocalypse ever demonstrated Plastic Man's capacity for instantly shape shifting, as well as Plastic Man's immunity to damn near everything (nowadays anyways) that may be relevant.Plastic Man had the success that he did against Fernus because (according to Bats, anyways) Plastic Man was inspiration given form- that is, shape shifting is his second nature and he can immediately, apparently unconsciously assume a great many forms, which he demonstrated in the fight. Apocalypse has never shown to shape shift so fast, with such an immediate and diverse array of forms.
Further, Plastic Man was only able to occupy Fernus physically while the rest of the team actually worked to overpower him. Since Apocalypse lacks Plastic Man's ability to stalemate and doesn't have the rest of the Justice League with him, any comparison between that battle and this theoretical one falls short.
Finally, while Fernus required telepathy to defeat the entire Justice League, he's not up against them here, so...
Fernus wins for all the same reasons that Martian Manhunter would, only more so.
👆
i like this new guy. he should post more. 😄
Originally posted by Existere
If Apocalypse ever demonstrated Plastic Man's capacity for instantly shape shifting, as well as Plastic Man's immunity to damn near everything (nowadays anyways) that may be relevant.
Apocalypse has increased his size instantly on panel, assumed the form of others, literally blown himself up and then regenerated back, shape-shifted parts of his body into functioning weapons, turned himself into a jet, etc.
Apocalypse' shape-shifting is better than Plastic Man's from what I've seen.
Plastic Man had the success that he did against Fernus because (according to Bats, anyways) Plastic Man was inspiration given form- that is, shape shifting is his second nature and he can immediately, apparently unconsciously assume a great many forms, which he demonstrated in the fight.
That makes no sense. I know Batman says it in JLA 88, but what does it really mean? Plastic Man is inspiration given form so all of a sudden he's immune to telepathy? WTF.
Apocalypse has never shown to shape shift so fast, with such an immediate and diverse array of forms.
So, him stretching hims body, turning himself into a half-octopus-half-crab-half-squid creature, turning one of his hands into one of those melee weapons (like Apocalypse did in Dracula vs Apocalypse) is beyond Apocalypse's capabilities?
Let's take a look at Apocalypse's shape-shifting feats during his fight with Ikaris in New Eternals: Apocalypse Now shall we?
Here, he turns himself into a jet (instant):
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph5.png
*Note: I'd like to see Plastic Man do anything as impressive as that.
Opens up a hole in his body in order to avoid Ikaris' blast (instant) in addition to making his arm bigger (instant):
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph3.png
Turns his torso into a sharp-ass razor (instant):
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph4.png
There you have it; that's one fight in which Apocalypse diversely and immediately shape-shifts his body to suit his purposes.
Further, Plastic Man was only able to occupy Fernus physically while the rest of the team actually worked to overpower him. Since Apocalypse lacks Plastic Man's ability to stalemate and doesn't have the rest of the Justice League with him, any comparison between that battle and this theoretical one falls short.
And Plastic Man is much weaker than Apocalypse and lacks his mental powers. Not to mention that the JLA were virtually useless against him throughout the majority of that story om their own. Iirc, all they did was get J'onn to gain back control over his body and become the dominant personality. So it's all good.
Finally, while Fernus required telepathy to defeat the entire Justice League, he's not up against them here, so...
So what's Fernus going to do here? Apocalypse possesses all of his powers and more.
I'm one of Poccy's biggest defenders on this board.
And even I'm not giving him the win here. 👇 Plastic Man is plastic. You can't use telepathy on plastic. He's saying the shapeshifter and plastic nature makes it impossible to get a lock on his mind for a telepathic assault. Kinda out of left field, but ok.
However..........Plastic Man is almost completely invulnerable to most kinds of attacks. It's incredibly hard to hurt him.
This is irrelevant though. I was willing to argue Apoc vs. MM in the past, I'm not willing to argue against a bloodlusted MM with access to his full genetic potential.
Originally posted by TheTyrant
The only reason Fernus was capable of defeating the Justice League on his own was because of the fact that they all, for the most part, had their vulnerabilities to telepathy;
He also used superspeed, invisibility, and phasing to physically savage the league.
Fernus gets my vote pretty handily.
When has Apocalypse been mind-raped? Powerful telepaths like X, Cable, and rookie Exodus have tried, but what success have any of them had? Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that Apocalypse can mind-rape Fernus, I'm just saying that he can't be mind-raped here.
How was Fernus more powerful tha J'onz? He was just a more evolved and ruthless psyche of the Martian Manhunter as far as I recall.
As explained before, he used his telepathy on a weak incarnation of the JLA which were shown to have nearly no tp resistance throughout the story. Meh.
Originally posted by TheTyrant
How was Fernus More powerful tha J'onz? He was just a more evolved and ruthless psyche of the Martian Manhunter as far as I recall.
He was using power combinations casually which normally would run J'onn dry.
J'onn has less endurance than most of the other league power houses, stuff like a major telepathic assault can make him collapse like when Known Man showed up, he TP KOed a team then fell over. Fernus's was effectively... endless. He TP KOs a team, some known for telepathy resistance, and keeps them mentally locked down while making himself a hundred feet tall and throwing down physically at the same time.
Stuff that J'onn could keep up for 10 seconds (like blitz/invisibility/phasing), Fernus did against the entire league for several minutes.
I think it's the fire. It fueled him. Fernus is not just ruthless, but was sort of J'onn's equivalent of Superman fighting close to the sun and supercharging.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm not too sure about that. Ostrander's MM was practically as formidable as Fernus, IMO.
Well above he'd been elsewhere in that JLA run, and well above his peers.
I mean, you had a situation where a GL was immune to telepathy for a short time and the only real option he had was to *run*.
