Thor, Herc, Hulk & Rulk vs. Superman, Etrigan, Capt. Marvel & Black Adam

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Hulk's leaping abilities aren't as effective as high speed flight, though. He can move at tremendous speed, sure, but speed equal to or greater than that of Superman or CM or BA's flight speed? Hell, can he jump faster than then can run? CIS on, and Bladam and Captain Marvel have shown willingness to amp their already top tier strikes with magical power and both have shown the ability to call down thunder and lightning, and at times, without even invoking "Shazam!".

Rulk would DESTROY Black Adam and/or Captain Marvel? Based the hell off of what? Stealing the Power of Shazam? Captain Marvel's shown the ability to steal it back, so good luck with that. Not to mention the idea he'll be fast enough to do so to begin with. You're taking these arguments to extremes which are really based off of nothing. And show me where Rulk absorbed the Odinforce.

Thunderclaps =/= heat vision, arctic breath, or Shazam bolts.

To a point, yes. If Etrigan brings along his magical powers outside of his brawling/brick fighting prowess, it would get dicey.

Make the thread.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Hulk's leaping abilities aren't as effective as high speed flight, though. He can move at tremendous speed, sure, but speed equal to or greater than that of Superman or CM or BA's flight speed? Hell, can he jump faster than then can run? CIS on, and Bladam and Captain Marvel have shown willingness to amp their already top tier strikes with magical power and both have shown the ability to call down thunder and lightning, and at times, without even invoking "Shazam!".

Rulk would DESTROY Black Adam and/or Captain Marvel? Based the hell off of what? Stealing the Power of Shazam? Captain Marvel's shown the ability to steal it back, so good luck with that. Not to mention the idea he'll be fast enough to do so to begin with. You're taking these arguments to extremes which are really based off of nothing. And show me where Rulk absorbed the Odinforce.

Thunderclaps =/= heat vision, arctic breath, or Shazam bolts.

To a point, yes. If Etrigan brings along his magical powers outside of his brawling/brick fighting prowess, it would get dicey.

Make the thread.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Hulk's leaping abilities aren't as effective as high speed flight, though. He can move at tremendous speed, sure, but speed equal to or greater than that of Superman or CM or BA's flight speed? Hell, can he jump faster than then can run? CIS on, and Bladam and Captain Marvel have shown willingness to amp their already top tier strikes with magical power and both have shown the ability to call down thunder and lightning, and at times, without even invoking "Shazam!".

Rulk would DESTROY Black Adam and/or Captain Marvel? Based the hell off of what? Stealing the Power of Shazam? Captain Marvel's shown the ability to steal it back, so good luck with that. Not to mention the idea he'll be fast enough to do so to begin with. You're taking these arguments to extremes which are really based off of nothing. And show me where Rulk absorbed the Odinforce.

Thunderclaps =/= heat vision, arctic breath, or Shazam bolts.

To a point, yes. If Etrigan brings along his magical powers outside of his brawling/brick fighting prowess, it would get dicey.

Make the thread.

How do you think any of them are dropping Hulk if it isn't with their fist? Their energy out put isn't stopping Hulk. A weaker version of Hulk has shown that he can survive heat vision and even a full Nova blast from Human Torch (along with the tremendous heat Sentry was unleashing). None of their energy output is dropping him... hell, Zom Strange punched at him constantly with magical charged punches that still failed to drop Hulk...Adam and Cap isn't doing any better imo.

I can't believe yo are saying this. Show me Adam and Cap raining down lightning during mid battle. They are fighters and this has been shown countless of times.

Are you saying that they can amp faster than WWH? Come on Jake... please tell me you don't believe that. Hulk has shown that he can amp up into the Trillions in less than a second. Hulk CAN surpass them in a short amount of time if he had to.

Hulks thunder clap has done some amazing things.

I can't believe you honestly don't believe Rulk can beat any of them with his powers back on. The only time Rulk had any bad showings is when he lost his amping...WITH his powers he has laid waste to top tiers and easily at that.

I will find the scan where Thor stated that Rulk was absorbing him but I don't know why I am doing this when you are going to try to find a way to counteract the scan. LOL.

Originally posted by carver9
How do you think any of them are dropping Hulk if it isn't with their fist? Their energy out put isn't stopping Hulk. A weaker version of Hulk has shown that he can survive heat vision and even a full Nova blast from Human Torch (along with the tremendous heat Sentry was unleashing). None of their energy output is dropping him... hell, Zom Strange punched at him constantly with magical charged punches that still failed to drop Hulk...Adam and Cap isn't doing any better imo.

I can't believe yo are saying this. Show me Adam and Cap raining down lightning during mid battle. They are fighters and this has been shown countless of times.

Are you saying that they can amp faster than WWH? Come on Jake... please tell me you don't believe that. Hulk has shown that he can amp up into the Trillions in less than a second. Hulk CAN surpass them in a short amount of time if he had to.

Hulks thunder clap has done some amazing things.

I can't believe you honestly don't believe Rulk can beat any of them with his powers back on. The only time Rulk had any bad showings is when he lost his amping...WITH his powers he has laid waste to top tiers and easily at that.

I will find the scan where Thor stated that Rulk was absorbing him but I don't know why I am doing this when you are going to try to find a way to counteract the scan. LOL.

Their energy output with their physical force would beat him. Pretending that their physical strength wouldn't be detrimental to Hulk to say nothing of the magical lighting said strikes would offer or the lightning from on high, which have damaged beings such an extremely amped Obsidian and the Spectre, is ridiculous. Adam and Black Adam's magical fists would deal quite a bit of damage and hit faster and more often than Zom Strange could.

Black Adam's called down the lightning against J'onn, the Spectre, during the time traveling fiasco in Egypt with Cap and the JSA against Vandal Savage and a precursor to Metamorpho and has shot lightning through the Spectre. Captain Marvel's called down the lightning during his battle with an Eclipso possessed Superman, while fighting some evil Darkseid flunky in "Legends", against Black Adam, and several times during his ongoing in the nineties.

IE. Enough for it to matter.

Hulk can amp far beyond them? In how much time and to what degree? Be specific and use feats.

Their Shazam lightning has done amazing things.

Not for a majority, no. And especially not if we use their epic WTF worthy feats just as I'm sure you're taking Rulk's into account. Using PIS and jobbing and low end feats from others who have faced Rulk doesn't help your argument.

Find the scan, then. I know he absorbed the Power Cosmic, but I've not seen any scan of Rulk explicitly stealing the OF from Thor.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Their energy output with their physical force would beat him. Pretending that their physical strength wouldn't be detrimental to Hulk to say nothing of the magical lighting said strikes would offer or the lightning from on high, which have damaged beings such an extremely amped Obsidian and the Spectre, is ridiculous. Adam and Black Adam's magical fists would deal quite a bit of damage and hit faster and more often than Zom Strange could.

Black Adam's called down the lightning against J'onn, the Spectre, during the time traveling fiasco in Egypt with Cap and the JSA against Vandal Savage and a precursor to Metamorpho and has shot lightning through the Spectre. Captain Marvel's called down the lightning during his battle with an Eclipso possessed Superman, while fighting some evil Darkseid flunky in "Legends", against Black Adam, and several times during his ongoing in the nineties.

IE. Enough for it to matter.

Hulk can amp far beyond them? In how much time and to what degree? Be specific and use feats.

Their Shazam lightning has done amazing things.

Not for a majority, no. And especially not if we use their epic WTF worthy feats just as I'm sure you're taking Rulk's into account. Using PIS and jobbing and low end feats from others who have faced Rulk doesn't help your argument.

Find the scan, then. I know he absorbed the Power Cosmic, but I've not seen any scan of Rulk explicitly stealing the OF from Thor.

Jake... I never said they "dont" use it, they just don't use it enough to pull any kind of weight in a fight against Hulk. As for your blitz and punching Hulk faster than Zom Str... when did they do anything like this. Show me Adam or Cap fighting like that and please prove that its consistent.

I agree, they could damage Hulk but Hulks healing factor would be nitting him up by the seconds. Hell, Skaar was hitting Hulk with repeated 100 trillions of tons of force and he was tanking that sh** like candy.

I don't remember BA calling down lightning on Jonn. I remember him hitting Jonn with a haymaker.

I already gave you a feat of Hulk amping beyond them. Skaar amped his physical stats to 100 trillion tons of force and Hulk matched and surpassed him instantly. A weakened Hulk was nearly drained of his power and went world breaker. A weakened Hulk amped himself to level where he could hold planet Sakaar together. or how about a Savage calm Hulk having a mountain tossed on him and amping himself instantly to hold up that weight?

I never said that their shazam lightning never done anything impressive but it isn't one shotting Hulk or Rulk and that isn't something that either of them start off of the bat doing.

Who jobbed against Rulk? Why does people tend to hide behind the PIS argument? Its not a good way to debate imo.

I'm still looking for the scan.

Originally posted by carver9
Jake... I never said they "dont" use it, they just don't use it enough to pull any kind of weight in a fight against Hulk. As for your blitz and punching Hulk faster than Zom Str... when did they do anything like this. Show me Adam or Cap fighting like that and please prove that its consistent.

I agree, they could damage Hulk but Hulks healing factor would be nitting him up by the seconds. Hell, Skaar was hitting Hulk with repeated 100 trillions of tons of force and he was tanking that sh** like candy.

I don't remember BA calling down lightning on Jonn. I remember him hitting Jonn with a haymaker.

I already gave you a feat of Hulk amping beyond them. Skaar amped his physical stats to 100 trillion tons of force and Hulk matched and surpassed him instantly. A weakened Hulk was nearly drained of his power and went world breaker. A weakened Hulk amped himself to level where he could hold planet Sakaar together. or how about a Savage calm Hulk having a mountain tossed on him and amping himself instantly to hold up that weight?

I never said that their shazam lightning never done anything impressive but it isn't one shotting Hulk or Rulk and that isn't something that either of them start off of the bat doing.

Who jobbed against Rulk? Why does people tend to hide behind the PIS argument? Its not a good way to debate imo.

I'm still looking for the scan.

Yes, they do. Between shouting Shazam and magical strikes and lightning barrages, they do it often enough to be a viable tactic in a forum fight and against the Hulk, no less. Cap's blitzed Superman before and Black Adam actually fought at least supersonic speeds with Jay Garrick. And of course, the times where Cap and Black Adam have fought each other. Case in point, they use both speed and their other abilities besides punching enough times for it to matter here, and it certainly matters against the Hulk and Rulk.

Seconds in which they would just...allow him to heal effectively? Hulk's healing factor doesn't translate into him being unbeatable.

He said "Shazam" when J'onn tried to telepathy assault him.

Do you think those feats are beyond Captain Marvel and Black Adam? I mean, seriously. Considering where they lie on the strength spectrum in DC, trying to act like Hulk, Savage or WWH is so far beyond them, it's ridiculous.

I didn't say it's one-shotting them, either. But they sure as hell won't no sell it, either.

Who jobbed against Rulk? Seriously? Loebforce doesn't ring a bell?

Good. sneer

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yes, they do. Between shouting Shazam and magical strikes and lightning barrages, they do it often enough to be a viable tactic in a forum fight and against the Hulk, no less. Cap's blitzed Superman before and Black Adam actually fought at least supersonic speeds with Jay Garrick. And of course, the times where Cap and Black Adam have fought each other. Case in point, they use both speed and their other abilities besides punching enough times for it to matter here, and it certainly matters against the Hulk and Rulk.

Seconds in which they would just...allow him to heal effectively? Hulk's healing factor doesn't translate into him being unbeatable.

He said "Shazam" when J'onn tried to telepathy assault him.

Do you think those feats are beyond Captain Marvel and Black Adam? I mean, seriously. Considering where they lie on the strength spectrum in DC, trying to act like Hulk, Savage or WWH is so far beyond them, it's ridiculous.

I didn't say it's one-shotting them, either. But they sure as hell won't no sell it, either.

Who jobbed against Rulk? Seriously? Loebforce doesn't ring a bell?

Good. sneer

Lol... you are cool with me Jake. You are one of if not the only person on KMC I enjoy debating against and you are persistent.

I am going to be that person that is going to get you to see the light.

I will respond to this post later.

In their rematch Thor stated Rulk sapped some of his Odinforce in their previous encounter then started demolishing Rulk

Going T2 on this much more versatile in the ways they can attack.

Originally posted by iceman24567
In their rematch Thor stated Rulk sapped some of his Odinforce in their previous encounter then started demolishing Rulk

I know...

I just can't find the d*** scan.

Thanks Iceman.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Team 2. Hulk and Rulk are disadvantaged against the Marvels.

Originally posted by iceman24567
In their rematch Thor stated Rulk sapped some of his Odinforce in their previous encounter then started demolishing Rulk

Originally posted by carver9
I know...

I just can't find the d*** scan.

Thanks Iceman.

Rulk was never stated to be sapping the Odin Force. It was however mentioned by Rulk right before he boarded the Leader's new base that he had absorbed Thor's energy; it was also pointed out by Thor that Rulk could no longer rob people of their power in their third confrontation, basically confirming that energy draining was used.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Rulk was never stated to be sapping the Odin Force. It was however mentioned by Rulk right before he boarded the Leader's new base that he had absorbed Thor's energy; it was also pointed out by Thor that Rulk could no longer rob people of their power in their third confrontation, basically confirming that energy draining was used.

Do you have the scan(s) in question, Rage?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Do you have the scan(s) in question, Rage?

Are they really necessary?

I'm soooo lazy right now.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Are they really necessary?

I'm soooo lazy right now.

Not really; I trust you. 😛

But yeah, I can buy Rulk draining a-typical Asgardian energy from Thor, but the actual Odin Force, not so much without an explicit scan of stating such. The Odin Force wasn't even mentioned in the Rulk/Thor fight, as I highly doubt Loeb did any research prior to throwing the fight together. Clarification either way would be nice.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not really; I trust you. 😛

But yeah, I can buy Rulk draining a-typical Asgardian energy from Thor, but the actual Odin Force, not so much without an explicit scan of stating such. The Odin Force wasn't even mentioned in the Rulk/Thor fight, as I highly doubt Loeb did any research prior to throwing the fight together. Clarification either way would be nice.

Well, I'm certain about one thing, the Odin Force was not mentioned. I don't think anyone can honestly believe Loeb was writing an Odin Force Thor.

Well, his research amounted to asking Breevort if there was anyway for Rulk to beat Thor down with his hammer. He would have done it anyway because it was "cool" and continuity only matters to a point. Their words not mine.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Well, his research amounted to asking Breevort if there was anyway for Rulk to beat Thor down with his hammer. He would have done it anyway because it was "cool" and continuity only matters to a point. Their words not mine.

facepalm

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Rulk was never stated to be sapping the Odin Force. It was however mentioned by Rulk right before he boarded the Leader's new base that he had absorbed Thor's energy; it was also pointed out by Thor that Rulk could no longer rob people of their power in their third confrontation, basically confirming that energy draining was used.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well, I'm certain about one thing, the Odin Force was not mentioned. I don't think anyone can honestly believe Loeb was writing an Odin Force Thor.

Well his research amounted to asking Breevort if there was anyway for Rulk to beat Thor down with his hammer. He would have done it anyway because it was "cool" and continuity only matters to a point. Their words not mine.

I don't think he was. I can see why people would declare that by virtue of Thor's return/revival and the fact he did have the OF in his ongoing, therefore he had it versus Rulk, but if you look at comics, writers don't always keep consistent with one another or keep characters at consistent/relevant power levels as they're depicted in their own books, or even manage to keep timeframes on the same page. It's what happens when you work in a shared medium like that, especially without collaborating with others.

Look at YA: The Children's Crusade for example. Steve is in his Cap uniform because the creative team didn't know what was going on with him at time for his return. As far Jeph Loeb himself goes, take a gander at Superman/Batman Public Enemies. The scene where Cap reverts into Billy to trick him into getting close and Batman is surprised that Billy is a young kid about Robin's age....even though Batman knew Captain Marvel's identity from years ago due to the JLI.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
facepalm

Being honest. I have the interview he and Ed did somewhere.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Yeah I think your right I cant remember exactly what Thor said but I suppose your right

The is the second scene I mentioned from Hulk #26:
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/ThorvsRulk5.jpg

The first scene I mentioned happened earlier on, around the time Rulk boarded the Leader's golden Hellicarrier. I'm too lazy to find that one though.

I would also like to point out that Rulk using other powers against Thor was planned long in advance:

Q: Ben I remember you saying that the Red Hulk had powers beyond just strength and that we were supposed to see them during the the Thor & Hulk fights. Did Jeph decide to change this somewhere along the line or is there still more to the Red Hulk than we're seeing?

A: There's still more to come, but if you go back and re-read the Thor fight, you should be able to pick up on some stuff that goes beyond sheer strength.