More bad economic news

Originally posted by inimalist
salesmen are not allowed to lie to you

they might, but it is fraud. Like, if a salesman says, "this is $10", but it is really $70, they have actually committed fraud (as long as it wasn't an accident).

well, yes, it actually would:

Police officer: its ok if you smoke this joint, you will be fine, its not illegal, I wont arrest you

Me: I'm not so sure about that, but you are the police officer, you would know

vs

Bank: its ok, you will be able to afford it, just sign

Me: I'm not so sure about that, but you are the bank, you would know

it is exactly the same thing, and it is problematic for the same reason. It would be like if your doctor was lying to you. Sure, you could go get your MD so that you could "know better", but like.... /sigh, **** it, you are right, your economy collapsed because of dumb consumers.

A person may not be able to afford it no matter what they make because they may be spending too much already. Affording something is based on what you do. They just put the numbers together and say what is reasonable based on your income and credit, but if you are towing the line, then you probably can't.

Originally posted by Harbinger
The "those gotdamn poor people are just so entitled" deal is beyond boilerplate at this point. It's essentially a tangent of Ray-Gun's "welfare queens in pink Cadillacs" line.

Most of the poor people I knew (from growing up), and currently know, don't have fancy cars or live in nice houses. Most, if not all of them, rent their homes. They don't have cars and have to rely on Detroit's crappy public transit. They have low-paying jobs because they never went to college. They don't feel "entitled" to a Benz or a McMansion. They also usually lack the money to better themselves and their lives (whether that be by way of higher education or other means).

If people were truly interested in talking about why our economy's off in the ditch, they'd be talking about the entire spectrum or poor people, not just the part that suits their argument. Plenty of people got out, gamed the system, and contributed to collapsing the economy. There's also a lot of people that went out and got gamed by mortgage companies. But for all of the talk about the "hate the rich" undertone of this thread, the "hate and blame the poor" undertone is equally as strong.

I grew up very poor so that won't work on me. I grew up in one of the poorest areas in the country. I know their behaviors very well as I know many people personally who adhere to it. They are the ones with 4 kids at 23 years old sucking up money. The ones who are perpetually unemployed and never pay their bills. They are the ones who buy impulsively, gamble impulsively, and spend money on alcohol and drugs. I know what it's like and I know what people do as I've been on all sides. I've had friends who were broke, then go out and buy a car or a gaming system and complain that they couldn't pay their rent because the "rich man stole from them". No, they were just being stupid. These are the ones with a $500 a month apartment driving an $40,000+ vehicle.

Here are the facts:

People who are poorer are more likely to have kids out of wedlock, or more kids than they can afford, that's a fact.

People who are poor are less likely to spend money on education and more likely to spend money on drugs and alcohol.

People who are poor are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol.

Poor people are more likely to not educate their children or really care.

Poorer people are more likely to commit crimes and be in jail.

People who are poor or more likely to be single mothers. Single mothers give birth to more dysfunctional children, drug addicts, teenage mothers, criminals, etc.

And on and on.

It isn't just the poor either, many of the middle class do some of these things (but not all) many of them signed on loans to be able to flip houses and make a quick buck. They are also fiscally irresponsible. Even though they earn more.

Poverty isn't a lack of money, it's a mindset that keeps people poor. I spend lots of time trying to educate people in real life on how to be more successful and how to not make bad decisions (knocking up your girlfriend, buying things you can't afford, etc.) Very basic stuff, and I do care about this subject quite a bit. I'm harsh because I care.

Originally posted by inimalist
salesmen are not allowed to lie to you

Have you ever purchased a car? Have you ever purchased a home from a realtor? Have you ever purchased expensive electronics? (Meaning, have you ever had to spend quite a bit of money on a single purchase that required you go through a salesman.) No, this is not a snarky/derisive question, but it could be read that way.

If you have, then you know what I'm talking about. They work on commission and they try their best to get a sale.

You know what I'm talking about, right?

It feels like we've swapped sides in this discussion, all of a sudden. I feels like I'm trying to sell to you the sleaziness of some of the bank agents that sold this loans. 😠

Originally posted by inimalist
they might, but it is fraud. Like, if a salesman says, "this is $10", but it is really $70, they have actually committed fraud (as long as it wasn't an accident).

I like this one, better, because it's not nearly as cut and dry:

"Sure! You can pay this loan in 2 years when the interest increases. NO PROBLEM 😄"

And they used that same sh*t eating grin "I'm a salesman" smile.

Are they wrong? Probably not legally because they can give their opinion that the person could cancel their cable, electricity, cell phone, and walk/ride a bike to work everyday to make up the difference.

Originally posted by inimalist
well, yes, it actually would:

Police officer: its ok if you smoke this joint, you will be fine, its not illegal, I wont arrest you

Me: I'm not so sure about that, but you are the police officer, you would know

vs

Bank: its ok, you will be able to afford it, just sign

Me: I'm not so sure about that, but you are the bank, you would know

it is exactly the same thing, and it is problematic for the same reason. It would be like if your doctor was lying to you. Sure, you could go get your MD so that you could "know better", but like.... /sigh, **** it, you are right, your economy collapsed because of dumb consumers.

I don't think it's a good comparison because they are really just two different things.

That's also not how entrapment works, btw. Your example is actually NOT entrapment. The person committing the crime has to have not committed the crime "otherwise". Meaning, in your scenario, you'd have to modify it to something like this:

Disguised Cop: Sir, would you like this weed? It's 5 ounces (1 once over the legal limit, for example).

Victim: No thanks. I don't smoke weed. Besides, that probably costs a crapload of money.

Disguised Cop: No, no...it's free. I'm giving it away because some cops are coming over tomorrow and I need to get rid of this, stat.

Victim: ... Well, okay. I have a stoner friend that might like this. I owe him $200, anyway.

*hands Victim the weed and the Victim puts it in his pocket.*

Disguised Cop: HANDS ABOVE YOUR HEAD AND LIE FLAT ON THE GROUND!

Well that isn't a lie. If you get a $0 down loan or a 0% interest loan, anybody with common sense knows the loans skyrocket in prices after a set amount of time, usually 6 months to a year. If you don't know that you are not fit to buy a house, and you shouldn't be taking loans like that anyways because they aren't good deals. If you can't afford to make a down payment, you can't afford a house. If you can't afford maintenance you can't afford a house. If you can't afford to have a lawyer or adviser look at the paperwork, then you can't afford a house. You must do due diligence first.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Disguised Cop: Sir, would you like this weed? It's 5 ounces (1 once over the legal limit, for example).

5 ounces?

where are you allowed to carry a quarter pound with it still being under the legal limit?

EDIT: yes, this is the most important part of what you said

Originally posted by dadudemon
Victim: ... Well, okay. I have a stoner friend that might like this. I owe him $200, anyway.

...

200?

5o of good is at least 9-1g

maybe I need to visit Oklahoma

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Banks tell you that you are approved, not that you can afford it.

/facepalm

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Poverty isn't a lack of money, it's a mindset that keeps people poor. I spend lots of time trying to educate people in real life on how to be more successful and how to not make bad decisions (knocking up your girlfriend, buying things you can't afford, etc.) Very basic stuff, and I do care about this subject quite a bit.

I thought you didn't believe in telling people they were stupid.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well that isn't a lie. If you get a $0 down loan or a 0% interest loan, anybody with common sense knows the loans skyrocket in prices after a set amount of time, usually 6 months to a year. If you don't know that you are not fit to buy a house, and you shouldn't be taking loans like that anyways because they aren't good deals. If you can't afford to make a down payment, you can't afford a house. If you can't afford maintenance you can't afford a house. If you can't afford to have a lawyer or adviser look at the paperwork, then you can't afford a house. You must do due diligence first.

This logic says to me that Bernie Madoff is innocent. After all the only people at fault are the ones who gave him money. They should have done their due diligence.

That poor man, being made out to be some kind of villain 🙁 He didn't defraud anybody, they defrauded themselves.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Have you ever purchased a car? Have you ever purchased a home from a realtor? Have you ever purchased expensive electronics? (Meaning, have you ever had to spend quite a bit of money on a single purchase that required you go through a salesman.) No, this is not a snarky/derisive question, but it could be read that way.

If you have, then you know what I'm talking about. They work on commission and they try their best to get a sale.

You know what I'm talking about, right?

It feels like we've swapped sides in this discussion, all of a sudden. I feels like I'm trying to sell to you the sleaziness of some of the bank agents that sold this loans. 😠

And if they outright lie to you (which banks actually did) you can sue them. Whereas you seem to think that it's not fraud. When a bank tells a lie it is not a lie. For some reason.

I suppose you also think we've always been at war with Eastasia, too.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I think you have a chip on your shoulder. You keep blaming one part, when everybody played their part. Saying the poor is not greedy because they have less is ridiculous. I've seen both ends.

.

I do have a chip on my shoulder, but at least I admit it, and I feel it's justified. I agree that many at the lower end of the scale are to blame for their own financial situation but my primary concern is the middle class (or what's left of it) which really fuels America's economic engine. Problem is the wealthy via the amount of money they control are far more able to do economic damage to our country which they have via globalization.

Unless we have jobs...yes jobs (I know that's a dirty word to you), that pay in th $40k-$80k a year range come back and be the stable norm the future of everyone in this country, except the top 1 or 2% is in peril. Soon even many of the wealthier and small business owners will suffer (many already have) because nobody can afford their products or services.

Your claim that globalization is inevitable might have some merit except I see two problems with this down the road, energy and water. How will China ship all those cheap manufactured goods in Diesel powered cargo ships when oil hits $200-$300 a barrel? Water will be another problem in the coming decades, the worlds aquifiers, which the vast majority of agriculture, are drying up. More localization, rather than globalization, might just be the solution.

Originally posted by inimalist
It would be like if your doctor was lying to you. Sure, you could go get your MD so that you could "know better", but like.... /sigh, **** it, you are right, your economy collapsed because of dumb consumers.

Pharmacist: Here, take this pill, it'll make you feel better
*2 weeks later*
Patient: Hey, I took that pill, and it kinda worked, but now I got side-effects
Pharmacist: Here, take another pill
*2 weeks later*
Patient: Hey, I took that pill, and it kinda worked, but now I got side-effects
Pharmacist: Here, take another pill
*2 weeks later*
Patient: Hey, I took that pill, and it kinda worked, but now I got side-effects
Pharmacist: Here, take another pill
*2 weeks later*
Patient: Hey, I think I'm getting ill again
Pharmacist: Shit, well I'm sure your insurance company will cover it

Originally posted by inimalist
/facepalm

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I thought you didn't believe in telling people they were stupid.

This logic says to me that Bernie Madoff is innocent. After all the only people at fault are the ones who gave him money. They should have done their due diligence.

That poor man, being made out to be some kind of villain 🙁 He didn't defraud anybody, they defrauded themselves.

Oh and btw, a lot of people knew what he was doing was screwy, they just didn't care and wanted their piece of the pie, just like the ones who bought those houses and didn't care about the consequences. Greed on all sides.

Oh no I never said that. There's different types of stupid. Having sex without a condom knowing full well the effects is stupidity by choice. But treating people like they're too stupid to know better is another thing entirely.

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
I do have a chip on my shoulder, but at least I admit it, and I feel it's justified. I agree that many at the lower end of the scale are to blame for their own financial situation but my primary concern is the middle class (or what's left of it) which really fuels America's economic engine. Problem is the wealthy via the amount of money they control are far more able to do economic damage to our country which they have via globalization.

Unless we have jobs...yes jobs (I know that's a dirty word to you), that pay in th $40k-$80k a year range come back and be the stable norm the future of everyone in this country, except the top 1 or 2% is in peril. Soon even many of the wealthier and small business owners will suffer (many already have) because nobody can afford their products or services.

Your claim that globalization is inevitable might have some merit except I see two problems with this down the road, energy and water. How will China ship all those cheap manufactured goods in Diesel powered cargo ships when oil hits $200-$300 a barrel? Water will be another problem in the coming decades, the worlds aquifiers, which the vast majority of agriculture, are drying up. More localization, rather than globalization, might just be the solution.

As I've said, look who will benefit from it. Numerous people, far poorer than you. Companies don't move out of the country for no reason, they do it because their expenses are higher. Their expenses are higher because we have people demanding more and more while giving less and less. So it only makes sense to find cheaper work to give those American's the "prices they deserve".

Jobs have their purpose. What I said is it is unwise to rely on a job because the era of "jobs taking care of you for life" are now over. We are in an information age, not an industrial one. People are still stuck in their industrial mindset, and it's going to leave them behind. I recommend people educate themselves about finances and let their money work for them more.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder lol. I love my life and I look forward to the future as I'm looking to find good in things, not the bad. I think we have more potential with products and services going around the world. It breaks down barriers as well. People are only worried about themselves. Understandable as it is human nature. Just like schools costing more and the results getting worse. Teachers know this (and I've talked to many) but they still want their check. Human nature, all around.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You do know the difference?

no, clearly not

you know, all I know about is PC nonsense and blame the rich

🙄

Well, whatever floats your boat. 🙂

I love how dadudemon is saying the banks are legit because the same immoral thieving lying shit they pulled off can be applied to everything in a market system. 😂

Of course the argument is, "the banks crossed the line the government (who they control) put there, therefore it's wrong for them and right for everyone else."

Like when your job is to look after a bunch of numbers that represent lives by making and enforcing laws, but instead you're seduce women with cigars. That is illegal, according to US law. Funny how political alignment was the only thing that made people realise what's actually important.

I know everyone's pissed off the banks didn't play by their own rules, but they kinda had to to keep the system going.

Besides, they don't have a blue dress.

After I finally got XBL gold (bought a 12 month subscription card for 40€), me and my friends were playing BC in a party. This guy came to our squad and decided for some reason to get under stairs and start idling there, so we couldn't squad spawn on him. Me and one of my friends were special ops, so we chose to punish him with tracker guns (or whatever those are)...
[Spam.]