Dr James Gilligan on violence

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, I haven't.

1) greatest television show ever. Not just my opinion either, it stands as one of the most classic shows, period, for a huge number of reasons. The creator, David Simon, has done other things with the highest of critical acclaim, namely, because of his attention to realism and letting people tell their own narratives. ie, he is amazing at telling stories, at making you see through people's eyes, etc. Outside of any type of debate, I can't recommend it highly enough, and if you need help finding it, *cough*, let me know.

2) in, iirc, the fourth season, the show focuses on the school system in Baltimore, sort of as a microcosm for education in poor urban areas across America. In it, children who are the offspring of drug dealers, children with excessive behavioural problems, things like that, are given an opportunity to be put in a special class. Instead of focusing on learning multiplication or whatever, these students focus on basic socialization in a healthy manner. There are still police officers present (these are problem youth in inner cities, some of them involved in drug dealing themselves) and are encouraged to use the experiences and knowledge they have gained from their life to accomplish goals. This is what is meant by an environment that makes reform easier. It doesn't mean "summer camp", it means changing the environment so that the people we are trying to rehabilitate can use their skills to have positive interactions with others, and work together in socially constructive ways, a way for these people to see themselves as belonging to a larger community and removing the impetus to just react against authority.

xyz and myself disagree about whether this would help everyone, but seriously, the evidence has been there since at least the 50s that these types of policies are much more effective at making what might be violent or "at risk" individuals feel as though they want to participate in society as positive members. At the very least, it teaches them more appropriate ways to channel their aggression and energy.

I'm with Quark here though, how is this confusing?

Originally posted by TacDavey
I see the thought process, I'm wondering what this "environment that makes reform easier" is. There are already programs out there that try to "reach out" to criminals in prison. It sounds like the idea is to not send criminals to prison, so where?

Originally posted by Quark_666
If you believe the current prison environment is the best that can or ought to be done, I recommend you look up the Stanford prisoner / guard experiment. If you feel obligated to call it something other than prison just because the living environment has been improved, I have to wonder if perhaps you view the function of prison to be something more brutal than mere containment, and if so, wow. I don't even know where to start.

hey, punishing people severely for their crimes is the christian way

Originally posted by inimalist
1) greatest television show ever. Not just my opinion either, it stands as one of the most classic shows, period, for a huge number of reasons. The creator, David Simon, has done other things with the highest of critical acclaim, namely, because of his attention to realism and letting people tell their own narratives. ie, he is amazing at telling stories, at making you see through people's eyes, etc. Outside of any type of debate, I can't recommend it highly enough, and if you need help finding it, *cough*, let me know.

I'll see if it's on Netflix.

Originally posted by inimalist
2) in, iirc, the fourth season, the show focuses on the school system in Baltimore, sort of as a microcosm for education in poor urban areas across America. In it, children who are the offspring of drug dealers, children with excessive behavioural problems, things like that, are given an opportunity to be put in a special class. Instead of focusing on learning multiplication or whatever, these students focus on basic socialization in a healthy manner. There are still police officers present (these are problem youth in inner cities, some of them involved in drug dealing themselves) and are encouraged to use the experiences and knowledge they have gained from their life to accomplish goals. This is what is meant by an environment that makes reform easier. It doesn't mean "summer camp", it means changing the environment so that the people we are trying to rehabilitate can use their skills to have positive interactions with others, and work together in socially constructive ways, a way for these people to see themselves as belonging to a larger community and removing the impetus to just react against authority.

xyz and myself disagree about whether this would help everyone, but seriously, the evidence has been there since at least the 50s that these types of policies are much more effective at making what might be violent or "at risk" individuals feel as though they want to participate in society as positive members. At the very least, it teaches them more appropriate ways to channel their aggression and energy.

I'm with Quark here though, how is this confusing?

That's a school system with kids, but what about murderers? I mean, adults? I'm still confused as to where they go. Are we still letting them roam around free, just in an "environment" we set up for them? Or are we talking about a special facility, kinda like prison, except they do "rehabilitation exercises" or something, and it's better furnished.

Originally posted by Quark_666
If you believe the current prison environment is the best that can or ought to be done, I recommend you look up the Stanford prisoner / guard experiment. If you feel obligated to call it something other than prison just because the living environment has been improved, I have to wonder if perhaps you view the function of prison to be something more brutal than mere containment, and if so, wow. I don't even know where to start.

I'm wondering if you are talking about forming a group to go to prisons and work with the criminals, or if we are talking about making a special facility and hiring special staff to work with criminals?

To help with the confusion, let's say we have a guy who kills someone. He then gets arrested. What happens to him now? Where does he go, what does he do?

Originally posted by inimalist
hey, punishing people severely for their crimes is the christian way

glare

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's a school system with kids, but what about murderers? I mean, adults? I'm still confused as to where they go. Are we still letting them roam around free, just in an "environment" we set up for them? Or are we talking about a special facility, kinda like prison, except they do "rehabilitation exercises" or something, and it's better furnished.

Originally posted by inimalist
these students criminals [would] focus on basic socialization in a healthy manner. There are still police officers present... and [they] are encouraged to use their experiences and knowledge they have gained from their life to accomplish goals. This is what is meant by an environment that makes reform easier. It doesn't mean "summer camp", it means changing the environment so that the people we are trying to rehabilitate can use their skills to have positive interactions with others, and work together in socially constructive ways, a way for these people to see themselves as belonging to a larger community and removing the impetus to just react against authority.

which part is unclear?

Originally posted by inimalist
which part is unclear?

The location mostly. That's all I've been asking this whole time. Is this a program that you want to take place in prisons? Or are we talking about building special facilities to accommodate this program?

And what kind of facility would it be? I'm not sure I'm down with spending a bunch of money to build a comfy resort for murderers.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm wondering if you are talking about forming a group to go to prisons and work with the criminals, or if we are talking about making a special facility and hiring special staff to work with criminals?

Originally posted by TacDavey
To help with the confusion, let's say we have a guy who kills someone. He then gets arrested. What happens to him now? Where does he go, what does he do?

"Kills someone" includes 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The location mostly. That's all I've been asking this whole time. Is this a program that you want to take place in prisons? Or are we talking about building special facilities to accommodate this program?

And what kind of facility would it be? I'm not sure I'm down with spending a bunch of money to build a comfy resort for murderers.

well, when someone proposes something that is even close to a comfy resort for murderers, that would be a relevant concern

Originally posted by TacDavey
The location mostly. That's all I've been asking this whole time. Is this a program that you want to take place in prisons? Or are we talking about building special facilities to accommodate this program?

In prisons, I would assume. There are already programs in prisons to teach convicts useful skills. One of the problems with purely punitive prison systems is that they at their best they don't change anything in the long term.

A young man joins a gang because he needs protection and has his lack of education means that the gang pays better than any job he can get.
He kills someone as part of a gang war and gets sentenced to 25 years in prison.
25 years later a man leaves the prison. He needs protection, has no skills he can sell, and hates authority more than ever.
Guess what happens next.

Programs to teach skills deal with part of the problem, they make it so that convicts don't need to be in the life they were in. Social reform programs deal with the other part, they (with much more difficulty) produce convicts who don't want to be in that life.

man, now my answer just looks douchey

And now mine looks like I'm talking with a big old stick up my butt

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

Guess what happens next.

YouTube video

god, I just want to post the entire series here...

TV will never be this good again

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In prisons, I would assume. There are already programs in prisons to teach convicts useful skills. One of the problems with purely punitive prison systems is that they at their best they don't change anything in the long term.

A young man joins a gang because he needs protection and has his lack of education means that the gang pays better than any job he can get.
He kills someone as part of a gang war and gets sentenced to 25 years in prison.
25 years later a man leaves the prison. He needs protection, has no skills he can sell, and hates authority more than ever.
Guess what happens next.

Programs to teach skills deal with part of the problem, they make it so that convicts don't need to be in the life they were in. Social reform programs deal with the other part, they (with much more difficulty) produce convicts who don't want to be in that life.

Alright, that makes sense.