inimalist's Tournament - Based Gods vs Time Conquerors

Originally posted by leonidas
whoa, just reread this. how can you say in one sentence:

then in the next say:

that.... makes no sense at all. 😬 freezing us would CERTAINLY be attacking us and using it offensively, as would 'slowing us down'.

i've no idea what this is supposed to mean.

a chronological attack, as in one that injures or KOs your opponent is illegal, so, de-aging or other such things are banned

affecting them is not

same with reality manip. You can manipulate the ground or air to hold your opponent, you cannot manipulate your opponent directly

meh, won't stop legion 🙂

Say if you manipulate your surrounding which gives a negative effect on the opponents and also adds positive effect on our teams (summons and all), would this be considered legal?

Originally posted by Ambient
Say if you manipulate your surrounding which gives a negative effect on the opponents and also adds positive effect on our teams (summons and all), would this be considered legal?

likely, the ban on "offensive time/reality manip" is more a ban of direct attacks that would damage/KO/etc your opponent

use as a buff/debuff is ok

EDIT: errr, for general questions, please keep it to PM or the tourney thread

Did someone just seriously suggest Naruto characters are low Herald level? 😆 😆 😆 😆

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Did someone just seriously suggest Naruto characters are low Herald level? 😆 😆 😆 😆

Originally posted by inimalist
for general questions, please keep it to PM or the tourney thread

The bit about attacking on legal grounds was obviously meant to be ironic. I’m surprised that got passed you.
You don’t have two magnetos, and the one magneto you do have is not tireless, or at least you should hope not:

Limit = Regular Magneto
Zombie Magneto = Regular Magneto + unkillable + tireless
Zombie Magneto = Limit + unkillable + tireless
Zombie Magneto > limit

I’ll clarify on the Buddhist issue: only in a setting like marvel would the characters have to be buddhist. This is because in Marvel, the destination of the soul after death is predicated on the character’s religious beliefs. However, in a setting that assumes Buddhist cosmology, the religion of the dead person would not be important — in the same way that, in a setting that assumes Christian cosmology, a person either ends up in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (for instance, in such a setting it would not matter if you believed in Valhalla or the Happy hunting grounds — your soul could not go there). This is important because, even though the character you named killed a bunch of buddhists, his soul still ended up in the Pure World, which is a prerequisite for the spell to work. In Marvel, for a character to end up in the pure world he would have to be a buddhist, as otherwise his soul would go elsewhere. The characters you’re trying to bring back do not fit this description, therefore cannot be brought back.
Again, leveling cities and uprooting mountains, I would argue, are low-herald level feats even without the regeneration. The regeneration only makes their low-herald status indisputable (endless Mike's laughter notwithstanding). So, again, my opponents are limited to a small number of ninja nobodies.

Originally posted by leonidas
he's actually handled two of them and STILL had plenty of power left over. now, as i said, he's tireless AND has help. the bombs won't be a problem at all. our shields are and continue to be invulnerable.

Except that he’s not tireless, and doesn’t have help. And I’m hitting you with way, way more than the equivalent of two nukes. I’m hitting you with scores, perhaps even hundreds of space-ship destroying blasts, and dozens of nuclear level of explosions. So Magneto is already exhausted.
As for your plan to use my summons metal against me, even the first servitor robot was able to resist an electromagnetic attack, and Nullitor has the power to turn energy against itself. Tearing apart one sentinel is nice, but you are up against dozens. I have no doubt that you could do all those nice things against my forces individually, but collectively you are swamped. Even if you do take over a few of my servants or their weapons, it is quite inconsequential since most of the ones you were planning on using disappear right after making their attack, and anyone else I lose can just be dismissed with a flick of Zarrko’s fingers. So, in fact, Magneto is still tired, alone, and overwhelmed, and anything he can grab to use for his own benefit can just be dismissed.

Originally posted by leonidas
all the weapons you mentioned--diode thing, inverter thingy.... none of them are bothersome to our shields. the diode ko'd some unshielded, unsuspecting avengers.

Originally posted by leonidas
byw, what kind of proof do you have of resisting tp? LOTS and LOTS of tp that is REALLY powerful....

Originally posted by leonidas
kang's own armor can be used against him, or mag's can use his powers to weaken or outright shut down his force field, and epoch is ALSO sheathed in armor.

If this is a bad match-up, I'm afraid it is entirely in my favor.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
😆 😆 😆 😆

even in naruto there are death gods and such, the "pure world" just means the afterlife. this is a moot point that you need to argue cause you're boned.

take the "L" like a man

Uh, I'm not a participant in this tournament....

guys, please take it elsewhere

Originally posted by Simbon
The bit about attacking on legal grounds was obviously meant to be ironic. I’m surprised that got passed you.

I’m not a big fan of attacking one’s opponents on legal grounds – it is a tactic that, to my mind, seems effete and cowardly. But as the judges can plainly see, large portions of my opponent’s stratagem are clearly invalidated on legal grounds.

"ironic"? 🤨 the irony seemed pretty carefully concealed behind a veil of seriousness. regardless, if i misinterpretted, my bad. moving on...

You don’t have two magnetos, and the one magneto you do have is not tireless, or at least you should hope not:

perhaps you missed inimal's official ruling?

joseph doesn't have the feats to put him above Magneto or even at low herald we might be able to infer that from who he was supposed to be, but in terms of versus forum feats and such, I don't see a problem

so....... yeah. deux magnetos. 🙂 we really don't have him doing anything exotic, btw. he's shielding and ripping your robots to shreds.

Limit = Regular Magneto
Zombie Magneto = Regular Magneto + unkillable + tireless
Zombie Magneto = Limit + unkillable + tireless
Zombie Magneto > limit

seriously?

in terms of the summons, most of what you said is argumentative rather than a question of the rules, I will just say, there is a major difference between indestructible and regeneration *cough* especially for someone who has a team full of time controllers *cough*

mags is a summons. inimal says it's not a question of the rules and he knows exactly what we did.

all legal-shmegal. 🙂

anywho, next:

So, again, my opponents are limited to a small number of ninja nobodies.

in terms of the summons, most of what you said is argumentative rather than a question of the rules, I will just say, there is a major difference between indestructible and regeneration *cough* especially for someone who has a team full of time controllers *cough*

😐

not to mention the guys you yourself called in.... and giving epoch martian powers? really? brings to mind a certain pot and kettle....

Except that he’s not tireless, and doesn’t have help.

er, see above......

And I’m hitting you with way, way more than the equivalent of two nukes. I’m hitting you with scores, perhaps even hundreds of space-ship destroying blasts, and dozens of nuclear level of explosions. So Magneto is already exhausted.

oh no he's not... and joseph is reinforcing the shields and legion himself has uber tk shields, not to mention all the shields of all the cable summons we have to assist.

beyond that, that tank thing killed a t-rex and hit some unshielded ufo. so....? 😕

kang's bombs being anywhere near nukes is complete speculation on your part. fact is you have no idea how powerful it was. what we DO know is that mag's shields are pretty much invincible, and now he has help. your initial assault fails, badly, and, by your own admission, it only lasts 1-2 seconds anyway! we easily weather that assault.

As for your plan to use my summons metal against me, even the first servitor robot was able to resist an electromagnetic attack,

to quote you:

I really, really hope you’re joking. This is like saying that because a forcefield transmits light I can just shoot a laser through it.

mags would tear your robot to shreds.

Tearing apart one sentinel is nice, but you are up against dozens. I have no doubt that you could do all those nice things against my forces individually, but collectively you are swamped.

many of your forces are turned via tp at the outset. it's not like mags is doing this alone. we have scores of cables and one of the most uber tp's out there. we also have joseph helping out. we even have TWO EBONY BLADES flying around and killing EVERYTHING. you yourself provided us with a wealth of weaponry and creatures to use against you. and NONE of them are capable of getting through our shields. they all die or are turned.

Even if you do take over a few of my servants or their weapons, it is quite inconsequential since most of the ones you were planning on using disappear right after making their attack, and anyone else I lose can just be dismissed with a flick of Zarrko’s fingers. So, in fact, Magneto is still tired, alone, and overwhelmed, and anything he can grab to use for his own benefit can just be dismissed.

sweet, so you concede we wipe them out easily and you just take them away. 👆

The diode ray pierced Invisible Woman’s shield, and Kang has already immobilized a combat-ready Magneto with the containment field.

scans?

Kang’s cloak is also good enough to fool Galactus and his heralds, so it’s not like you’ll see the attack coming.

and just how do you find mag's? he went in cloaked and it was already proven he can multi-task while cloaked. and where are the scans of your tp resistance again?

Zarrko is the only one who doesn’t have any native TP resistance, but that’s where the coating comes in. Any attempt at mindrape will just get turned against you.

the 'coatings'? as soon as you get on the field attacks will be coming from all around you! you'll be getting pummeled by our summons adn anyone we've taken control of. that 'coating' couldn't handle couple multiple attacks! it would be rendered useless almost the instant you land on the field and you are attacked simultaneously on multiple fronts. we're not standing back attacking you one at a time--this is a WAR, and you'll be getting attacked from all directions in all manner of ways.

i really, really hope you’re joking. This is like saying that because a forcefield transmits light I can just shoot a laser through it. Magneto’s powers have failed against both Tony and Doom,

doom has taken steps to deal with mags, but in children's crusdae they appeared pretty even. mag's has wrecked tony several times and in dark seduction he was wrecked again. and i'd love to see proof that kang's armor>doom's. in terms of feats, doom>>kang, not to mention he has magic to help him. there is nothing at all in your prep that says you've done anything to 'anti-magneto' your armor. mags could always just forget the armor and attack your blood directly anyway. 😄

fact is, tony's armor has FAILED against mag's more than once, doom has PROOF he can resist mag's powers to a degree. what PROOF--aside from claims kang's armor>>doom's--do you have that we couldn't affect kang's armor?

and, one more time--where is the proof that kang and epoch could resist legion's tp, along with the concerted tp of all our summons.....?

If this is a bad match-up, I'm afraid it is entirely in my favor.

❌

our shields hold.
we wreck their army and take over large parts of it by his own admission.
they have no way to penetrate our shields.
they have no proof of tp resistance--and we have a LOT of it.

all the advantages are ours.

a couple of the ironman scans i mentioned--these are more recent. there are a couple older ones where mags owned him too. the second one is important--mags--IN A WEAKENED STATE AND USING LORNA'S POWERS, NOT HIS OWN--was able to bypass tony's armor and directly affect his blood beneath it. the first one shows tony about to be simply overwhelmed, by, again, a mags using polaris's powers.

http://imageshack.us/f/109/magnetodarkseduction030.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/magnetodarkseduction030.jpg/

here, btw, is what mags did once he got his OWN powers back....

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/228/magnetodarkseduction041.jpg/

so, yeah. effortlessly took out tony, while simultaneously taking control of she-hulk and pwning the others. so, so much for tony shutting down mag's power. without proof, there is no reason to suggest he could not do the same to kang or epoch.

So, let’s go through some of these points one by one.
1) My Opponents only have a few summons

Originally posted by psycho gundam
even in naruto there are death gods and such, the "pure world" just means the afterlife.

Originally posted by leonidas
a couple of the ironman scans i mentioned--these are more recent. there are a couple older ones where mags owned him too. the second one is important--mags--IN A WEAKENED STATE AND USING LORNA'S POWERS, NOT HIS OWN--was able to bypass tony's armor and directly affect his blood beneath it. the first one shows tony about to be simply overwhelmed, by, again, a mags using polaris's powers.

http://imageshack.us/f/109/magnetodarkseduction030.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/magnetodarkseduction030.jpg/

here, btw, is what mags did once he got his OWN powers back....

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/228/magnetodarkseduction041.jpg/

so, yeah. effortlessly took out tony, while simultaneously taking control of she-hulk and pwning the others. so, so much for tony shutting down mag's power. without proof, there is no reason to suggest he could not do the same to kang or epoch.

Leo, I have to admit that I am pretty surprised you would even pursue this line of argument; not only have you yourself expressed doubt that Magneto could affect Kang’s shields in the versus forum, but you also know that the Surfer was unable to affect Kang’s shields, that Tony has resisted mags on several occasions (just as Mags has affected Tony), that Doom has resisted Mags every time Magneto tried to affect his armor, that Magneto has never used his powers successfully against armor of Kang’s stature (let alone Epoch’s), and that in fact this has never been shown to be a viable strategy against any armor stronger than Tony’s. Since you already know all of this, and you know that I can produce numerous scans to demonstrate the power and advanced level of Kang’s armor, I can only assume that you are pursuing this route in order to waste my time digging up scans — something, quite frankly, that I would not have expected from you. If you insist on this point, I will go ahead and put up the scans, but since I’m pretty sure you actually agree with me that this is not a viable tactic for your team, I think it will save us both time to simply restrict the debate to the issues that we actually do differ on.

I like how your whole argument is based around crying foul....

A text wall made of tears

You're flopping like a Brazilian footballer (i still love you brasil, but i had to say it)

Originally posted by psycho gundam
I like how your whole argument is based around crying foul....

A text wall made of tears

You're flopping like a Brazilian footballer (i still love you brasil, but i had to say it)

I can see why you needed Leo on your team -- so far I've seen you post a lot of "counterarguments" that amount to: "Just face it, you can't win." As for crying foul, it would be more correct to say that your whole strategy consists of claiming feats you can't actually do. Likewise, my plan works even if you could back up those false claims, while you have yet to produce an effective strategy against my own team.

you could use leo's help yourself, he would have told you not to write all that bullshit.

anyway, you're the one trying to debunk something, if it's not working for you switch gears. you're trying to say our plan doesn't work so that your weaksauce plan actually can accomplish something, but you're not a fan of that style of debating, no.

so to reiterate....

Originally posted by psycho gundam
lol at the buddhist angle. one of the characters kabuto summoned destroyed and slaughtered a buddhist monastery just to make money from a bounty.

unless we're talking about dr.doom's mother, no mortal soul in marvel is under lock and key by some being/dimension that can't simply be plucked from beyond by this technique.not that it matters but heaven and hell were both robbed of souls in kabuto's summoning technique

Originally posted by Simbon
So, let’s go through some of these points one by one.
[B]1) My Opponents only have a few summons

This is PG’s attempt to conceal how the afterlife works in Naruto’s world. Of course there are multiple death gods......[/b]

seriously?

Originally posted by inimalist
in terms of the summons, most of what you said is argumentative rather than a question of the rules, I will just say, there is a major difference between indestructible and regeneration *cough* especially for someone who has a team full of time controllers *cough*

by the rules, by inimal's decree, the summons are LEGAL.

2) Magneto[/B]
One of the funniest aspects of my opponents’ strategy is their “no-limits” approach to Magneto,

okay, let's dispense with this line of thought immediately. let's see what we ACTUALLY have him doing. at the outset he and joseph go in with shields up. they are untiring so combined they easily weather your 1-2 second assault (which scan says the bombs can destroy cities, btw? so many scans i may have simply missed it...) regardless--on his OWN his shields can block the power of a po'd PHOENIX!

http://imageshack.us/f/405/classicxmen01816tn3.jpg/

after that, they continue to keep their shields up. we dispense with the condensing shield almost immediately as there is no real need for it once we realize the bulk of your forces are robotic in nature, and those who are not have plenty of metal around for us to play with. mags IS cloaked and we have already shown scans that he can still use his powers WHILE cloaked. add to that the idea that he can't get tired and there is no reason whatsoever to assume he can't keep up his shields and be undetectable. finally, we have him destroying your forces, along with scores of cables and his own, untiring clone, joseph.

your text-wall really amounts to nothing more than shielding, cloaking and destroying your metal-rich guys. as far as the ebony blades you gave us--even if you somehow wanted to contend the notion that mags could simply grab the blades themselves with his power (if he can grab mjollnir, i see no reason he couldn't simply control the swords) he could CERTAINLY control the HILTS of each blade. from there, the blades would wreak total havoc on your troops.

you say we're using no-limits with mags? the things we have him doing (without fear of tiring, don't forget) are certainly NOTHING compared to THIS little feat, performed by a WEAKENED MAGNETO!

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Magneto's feat from Uncannt Xmen #521

After sitting on a mountaintop for over 24 hours, and preventing any physical or telepathic contact with him, we find out what Magneto has been doing.

Moving a planet destroying bullet that is light years away (it's been travelling faster than light for months), in his 'weakened state' is insanely impressive.

it doesn't end there. he's also had a shield erected around him for the 24hrs AND he's blocked even EMMA from being able to touch him with tp. and there was the rest of course, like where he actually seperated a PHASED kitty from the bullet itself and then sent the bullet away (via wormhole???)

Originally posted by Galan007
Here's that:

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags1.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags2.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags3.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags4.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags5.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags6.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags7.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags8.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags9.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags10.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags11.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags12.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags13.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags14.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/mags15.jpg

an absolutely UNBELIEVEABLE feat. did i mention he was weakened??

yet you think we're giving him too much to do? 24hrs. invincible shield. untouchable to tp. controlling a planet killing bullet that is LIGHTYEARS away. seperating a phased kitty from said bullet and getting rid of it. all that WHILE WEAKENED.

and WE ARE OVERTAXING A NON-TIRING MAGS?? 😐

here is another scan of mags dealing with multiple sentinels:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/717763/Civil_War_House_of_M_01_Zone-Megan_pg21-22.jpg.html

mags has grown up fighting sentinels......

as for a large number of robots: a simple scan, but this is effortless stuff for mags:

http://imageshack.us/f/127/captainamerica367actsofmf6.jpg/

then there's this:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/6733926/x-men_534_1_legion_wezz_cps_dcp_028_029.jpg.html

and just what is mags capable of if there is enough metal around? how much CAN he do with it? well, there is this little feat:

http://imageshack.us/f/100/homcivilwar02zonemeganptu7.jpg/

yeah, he raised a friggin MOUNTAIN RANGE. yet you don't think that--WITH HELP FROM JOSEPH--he could literally SHRED your forces of robots, simply bfr them out of the atmosphere or miles into the ocean? along with simply turning them into lethal weapons to use against your guys, all these things are easily availabvle options. joseph could take out dozens or scores of your guys as well by just opening the earth and letting it swallow them:

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/4781/magsripsapartground8du.jpg

we have ways of wiping out massive amounts of your troops--EASILY and again, making others turn to fight for us or simply using parts of them to wipe out more of your guys.

methinks thou art SEVERELY underestimating magneto's power levels....

as far as you simply pulling out 'uncompromised' forces anytime you'd like.... well, let's see some scans of it happening while in a battle. while you're at it, love to see those scans that show legion or our legion of cables, don't simply mindrape you as soon as you arrive on the field.... been asked for a few times. still see no scans showing you have any tp resistance.

at all.

4) My Coatings
Leo has claimed that Kang and Epoch’s coatings will be depleted very quickly, but this ignores several factors. The first, and least important, is that he doesn’t have all of the summons he thought he did.

Originally posted by inimalist
in terms of the summons, most of what you said is argumentative rather than a question of the rules, I will just say, there is a major difference between indestructible and regeneration *cough* especially for someone who has a team full of time controllers *cough*

again, seriously. the argument you're putting forth sounds akin to flash's speedforce not working in a tournament because we're not in the dc universe. all powers are assumed to work, regardless of where we are. pg explained it already anyway and the summons ARE LEGAL. so, yeah, we DO have as many as we thought we had.....

The second, and much more important, is that my opponents have no way of detecting them.

proof that we can't locate you via tp....?

Kang’s cloaking field has fooled even Galactus and his heralds —

scan?

when he and Epoch teleport

what prevents us finding epoch and ko'ing him with tp? or mags shredding his armor or tech?

onto the field and attack Magneto, they will instantly attack Magneto from behind, and even if Magneto was able to try and defend himself (which frankly, is incredibly doubtful), he would only end up helping my forces kill him.

and how do YOU find mags? and how do YOU get through his shield? notice you dropped that containment thingy since there is likely no way to show it could be deployed in the way you tried. so, how DO you penetrate our shielding? i have no doubt that mags could affect your own forcefields if given only a short time. you think you could get through our shields first? i challenge that belief and ask for proof. here's my proof that he COULD affect/weaken/outright take down, your forcefields:

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/MagnetovsProteus7.jpg

Energy (Kang), just electrons dancing.

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/MagnetovsProteus8.jpg

if he can do that to PROTEUS, there is no reason at all to think he couldn't affect your shielding. and he took him apart in only a couple pages--he just needed to be close enough to analyze the energy. you already said you get in nice and close......

so, to recap:

--mags is certainly NOT being overextended. he is tireless for this battle and STILL doing LESS than his best feat on-panel. AND he has help here.
--his forces are shredded. love to see how they instantly know which ones are comprised, and love to see how they simply take them away and replace them while in the middle of a pitched war that his guys are taking part in. if zarrko can do it, i'd again love a scan.
--no proof they are immune to the MASSIVE amounts of tp our team has available to it.
--we've shown proof mags is invisible. i'd love proof that THEY are.
--even if the 'coating' works on the first couple tp attacks, we've scores more. the coating is used up almost the instant they arrive.
-we've still got 2 ebony blades we could use to gut kang and epoch as soon as we see them arrive.
--they've no way of getting through our shielding

so, yeah. we win. handily.

Originally posted by Simbon
Leo, I have to admit that I am pretty surprised you would even pursue this line of argument; not only have you yourself expressed doubt that Magneto could affect Kang’s shields in the versus forum,

but this isn't the vs forum where we are free to speculate. this is a tourney where PROOF is called for. i also was pretty unaware of just how powerful mags actually WAS when i said that. he's a lot more powerful than i ever imagined he was.

but you also know that the Surfer was unable to affect Kang’s shields,

scan?

that Tony has resisted mags on several occasions

meh, not so much. mag's has pretty much made a living of tooling tony's armor--even when he HAD prep.

Doom has resisted Mags every time Magneto tried to affect his armor,

not everytime, but often the battles are brief and end in draws.

that Magneto has never used his powers successfully against armor of Kang’s stature (let alone Epoch’s), and that in fact this has never been shown to be a viable strategy against any armor stronger than Tony’s.

doom has DEMONSTRATED immunity because he had PREP and could specifically tailor his armor to battle mags. and he STILL has never beaten him! so, your only proof that mags CAN'T affect your armor is because YOU THINK kang's armor>doom's? the armor doesn't matter--the man wearing it--in this case doom--is what made the difference. so, again, i've shown mags affecting tony THROUGH his armor. i see no reason at all mags couldn't do the same to you.

Since you already know all of this, and you know that I can produce numerous scans to demonstrate the power and advanced level of Kang’s armor, I can only assume that you are pursuing this route in order to waste my time digging up scans — something, quite frankly, that I would not have expected from you.

😂

you wouldn't expect me to demand proof of your abc logic? sorry to be such a disappointment....

If you insist on this point, I will go ahead and put up the scans,

go ahead and humor me..... or don't. doesn't matter to me. i'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest the judges might like some proof of your claims though.....

and before i forget, and lest the judges forget--we have literally dozens of cable summons'. here are just a couple scans showing just how helpful they can be:

they'll just go around tk blasting anyone they can reach:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/380/hrcable34104bn.jpg/

they can also use illusions to confuse the enemies:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/Scans/soldierx_v2_011_21_rougher.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/Scans/soldierx_v2_011_22_rougher.jpg

here is how helpful their shields would be:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/Scans/soldierx_v2_010_02_rougher.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/Scans/soldierx_v2_010_04_rougher.jpg

or they could just do THIS to any enemy they come across--maybe kang or epoch...?

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1384/cd00203oi0.jpg

or they can do something simple like this:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/664/cd00205tb2.jpg

or they could just mindcontrol foes or pull them into the astral world. don't see anyway kang or epoch could prevent something like this:

Originally posted by "Id"
[B]
Telepathy
Young Nathan is seen as a threat due to his potential, and is infected by the T.O. by Apocalypse. In fact it was young Nathan, that yanked Jean into his own psyche. However it was not just Jean. Apocalypse, and Cyclops was brought into the boys psyche. Infected with the T.O. Cyclops hands over Nathan to the unknown women (Rachael?) so that he can be treated. (X-Factor 65-68.)
[/CENTER] [/B]

again, we have answers to every attack they can muster and have thrown doubt on all their defenses. we are tireless and can outlast them and our shields are invincible. we have the better, more effective army and we are capable of wiping out massive amounts of his team simultaneously.

or, to paraphrase:

nwoot