Yes, it was continuing because we weren't negotiating; the US insisted on unconditional surrender.
The fact remains that that Japanese only started talking about surrender when the mass civilian deaths started. This is one of the great moral issues of World War 2- the consensus is very much that targettng civilians worked.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yes, it was continuing because we weren't negotiating; the US insisted on unconditional surrender.The fact remains that that Japanese only started talking about surrender when the mass civilian deaths started. This is one of the great moral issues of World War 2- the consensus is very much that targettng civilians worked.
But like Dadudemon said, we had BEEN targeting civilians. The mass civilian deaths didn't start when we nuked Japan, they had been going for quite some time. And we had shown that we had no intention of stopping either.
Did the Japanese only care how their civilians were killed? Killing them with a nuclear weapon is somehow more offensive and troubling than killing them with normal weapons? And if it is more troubling to kill them with an atomic bomb, is the offense increase significant enough to spur an unconditional surrender where there was no chance of one before?
That just doesn't seem likely to me. Like you said in you last post:
Originally posted by Ushgarak
But what else was a super-powerful weapon going to do that also had not already been demonstrated? Destroy industry? We'd done that. Destroy military forces? We'd done that too. If your tack is that it can't have been civilians because we'd already been killing them, then I am afraid you have kinda trapped yourself as we had already done any other military target on the same scale as the civilian deaths. You'd remove everything from the equation. It doesn't work.
We had been bombing everything. The only variable that was different from all other attempts made so far is that we used a nuke. Which leads me to believe it was the nuke that did that trick, not the amount of civilian's it killed.
Sorry, you two are both misunderstanding me. I shall clarify.
You seem to be thinking I am saying they only negotiated after the atomic bombs dropped. No. I meant what I said. They started negotiating after the mass civilian deaths of the firebombing. That is literally true- it is not my opinion, it is simply what historically happened. Constant and heavy military defeat after military defeat did NOT bring them to the negotiating table. The air campaign- firebombing their cities- did. When that campaign started, they started putting out peace feelers as that was was too much for them.
So nothing got them even THINKING about surrender until the massacre of their cities started. The reason the war didn't end then is because we would not negotiate- we insisted on surrender being unconditional. They didn't go for unconditional until the atomic bombs were used. So, if you say they did not care about their civilians, you are factually wrong. That is, in fact, the only reason they were even contemplating giving up, and the historical record bears this out. Like I told you, targeting civilians in World War 2 worked. Every side used it successfully.
So it doesn't matter how weird you find it that the method made the difference. I am afraid again the historical record bears it out- yes it did. There was a tangible difference to them between us firebombing cities and us nuking them. Rather than disbelieving it- which puts you against the facts- you'd do better to try and ponder what that difference might have been to them. Several ideas have been suggested in this thread. It's really not as strange as you imply.
Your final sentence- that it was the nuke that did it- makes no sense at all on its own. There's nothing magical about the nuke; it is just a big bomb. You have to establish what it is the nuke did differently that made the difference to them. "It was a nuke" is not a reason. You cannot rule out civilian deaths just on the idea that we had already done that because, as I told you, we had already done everything, so that would make the nuke irrelevant. Clearly, therefore, what we had done before does not rule anything out at all.
So, there is historical support for the fact that the Japanese cared about civilian deaths and the general destruction of their cities- that's actually a given. And likewise there is obvious support for the idea that destruction via the atomic bomb scared them more than destruction from firebombing; there is no point arguing that either. This makes the pro-bomb camp look pretty good, taking the position that you are. It is, in fact, almost impossible to argue convincingly that the bomb would have made them surrender if not dropped on a city- it ignores the real value the bomb had as a psychological weapon; a value only apparent when demonstrated to its full extent.
Now, does this mean we HAD to use the bomb? Well, no and as I said earlier I don't think we did. But let's not kid ourselves that the bomb didn't work in the way it was used. If you were going to use the bomb, then it was used the only reasonable way it could be.
The alternative isn't "let's find a nicer way to use the bomb", which is very hard to support. The alternative is "let's not use the bomb at all," to which the traditional reply is that this would have meant a longer war and hence more deaths, which I am not personally convinced about.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The alternative isn't "let's find a nicer way to use the bomb", which is very hard to support. The alternative is "let's not use the bomb at all," to which the traditional reply is that this would have meant a longer war and hence more deaths, which I am not personally convinced about.
I know its counter-factual history, but do you think there might have been greater long-term abuses and oppression had Japan been glowed to keep some of its territorial gains and status as an Imperial power? (which I'm assuming would have been the outcome of greater negotiations)
Originally posted by inimalist
I know its counter-factual history, but do you think there might have been greater long-term abuses and oppression had Japan been glowed to keep some of its territorial gains and status as an Imperial power? (which I'm assuming would have been the outcome of greater negotiations)
I think everyone can agree though that Japan being occupied by the Americans and Americans only in the manner they were occupied was far superior to what would have happened if Russia had invaded and conquered Hokkaido as they planned.
could a russian empire that included most of east asia even have been possible? I mean in terms of logistics, how long could moscow have held kyoto or the vast swaths of China/Korea under Japanese control?
I'm not saying the outcome would have been better, but the Soviets hardly controlled Eastern Europe and crumbled after 60 years. "Soviet" Bejing and Tokyo don't strike me as real, legitimate possibilities.
Originally posted by inimalist
could a russian empire that included most of east asia even have been possible? I mean in terms of logistics, how long could moscow have held kyoto or the vast swaths of China/Korea under Japanese control?I'm not saying the outcome would have been better, but the Soviets hardly controlled Eastern Europe and crumbled after 60 years. "Soviet" Bejing and Tokyo don't strike me as real, legitimate possibilities.
The point was never direct control, the point was to ensure you had leaders who saw things your way. Much in the same way America never invaded Iraq with the interest of annexing it (though in a perverse way I think some might respect that intention more than going in to nation build under the false pretense of self-defense and humanitarian concerns)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Now, does this mean we HAD to use the bomb? Well, no and as I said earlier I don't think we did. But let's not kid ourselves that the bomb didn't work in the way it was used. If you were going to use the bomb, then it was used the only reasonable way it could be.The alternative isn't "let's find a nicer way to use the bomb", which is very hard to support. The alternative is "let's not use the bomb at all," to which the traditional reply is that this would have meant a longer war and hence more deaths, which I am not personally convinced about.
You don't think dropping the bombs was necessary at all? But it we are going to drop them, it might as well be on cities? I still don't understand the "if you're gonna do it, do it on cities" line of thinking. If what you are saying is right, and we don't need to drop them at all, wouldn't dropping them on some military instillation's only help?
Telepathic torture- Science and paranormal - Telepathy works???
Please resend this to other people , many people together can solve this tragedy, please suport this letter of Vinko Rajic,
help to find out what is this about:
I am maybe the only really telepathic person in the world. You should not think that I could be Schizophrenic.
STOP PSYCHO TERROR ON ME , PSYCHOPATS ARE PSYCHO KILLING ME, I AM TOTALY MAD OF PSYCHO TORTURE.
Can you please resend this email to other scientists, please save me of this terror.
Can you please give me advice , what I can do against gang that torture me for last 10 Years.
They cost me all important things in my life for last 10 years.
I can not pay back money to CSN, I am this winter going to finish on the street.
I have to get polisen to start arresting them.
Academic degree, job, marriage, sex, pleasure, homeland... and all other things , I have nothing and they talk to me using telepathy:
- "you lost everything and I get paid, they paid me every day and you losing your life time"
- "you future wife is fu__ing someone else and you are mas__rbating and living single"
HEHEH, you suck, I get big money for it, ...
I can exchange voice, video, smell, people can move small move muscles on my body from distance up to few kilometer and much more
and all messages from me are transmitted to big number of people so I am a Mental Radio.
One of the most advanced things I can do is to talk brain to brain and it is very fascinating,
works 100% all the time and it is really talk direct to brain.
I never found any document about any other existing person in human history like myself, but
science never did serious research on me and I actually did not exist in world of science.
I could easy give evidence for telepathy.Maybe some of Neurologist or scientist
could help me or is maybe interesting to make research on my phenomena.
What I find most fascinating my telepathy is nearly identical what Schizophrenics experiences.
They can get voice, videos and smell, I can transmit voice , video and smell using telepathy.
People can connect my brain in such a way that they are like running my thinking, it is like you connect
some ones head and when you think he fill it like he is thinking, difficult to explain.
When someone connect me he can think own thoughts inside my brain and that is exact what Schizophrenics are
talking about "delusional thinking".
My telepathy manifest itself exact like "Schneider's first-rank symptoms".
Very fascinating but some people found some very fuj person to run
thoughts in my head and that's really nightmare. That person has very good knowledge in psycho terror , probably he learn how to
psycho break people in war camps in Bosnia.
Person they finance is suported by some psyckopat Church or Swedish and Norwegian media.
I think sh-it pervert is receiving information how to find me of that sh-it pervert new Church.
I do not know what kind of network they use to collect money and how they find me.
I was in Tibet and Africa and in remote part of Tibet and Africa they could't find me but Europa and Australia they find me
and they send sh-it pervert to place where I am to terroroze me.
What I want to tell is that I think that is very big mistake not to take me seriously and make research with me and stop using me
for creating some idiot show in which my life is just getting vested and some idiots find employment.
I think that some of "Schizophrenics" are just receiving from some person from very long distance.
They are few important differences, moving small muscles on my body and sex.
People can tell me that they are going to move some small muscle on my body and really move it.
One of most fascinating things is pen-is erection. It is possible to get my penis erected from distance any time ,
it means I can have sex forever and very intensive , something like Tantra.
I am working on to get asylum for USA and some other states, maybe they are going to stop this mad terror on me.
I have very bad problem in Sweden, bad that Swedish do not understand how miserable my life is
or they understand but not care.
Swedish polisen just ignore this, they could easy stop this, they could call my ex. Lisa Herne from Halmstad
and she could give them informations on peoples working on this.
I think Swedish police think this is show and I am psycho torrturized for 10 Years or I do not understand what
is wrong with police department in Sweden.
Problem is that for the last 10 Years they paid some very offul person to terrorize me from distance
using telepathy. Problem is that that person found mad fun , something like guards in concentration camps.
People they employ is probably are homosexual, shit, anal perverts with very good knoalage in psycko terror.
Typically Bosnians contrecations cam guard, really nigtmare there.
Terror:
1. I am Software developer and i have to contrecate on my work but he is spending all day long talking to me
15-17 hours a day and he is using tactics of psycho terror, usually used on war prisoners in concentration camps
in Bosnia. He wake me up any time in the night just to psycho break me.
2. Diarrhea problem. He can move muscles in my stomach and he do it all the time, he is in distance of few kilometer day and
night and terrorizing my stomach. He or group of shit perverts is working
day and night around me on it.
At the end my stomach is really not working and I have eating problems and
can get diarrea. I am getting to look similar to war prisoner.
He like to watch me go to the toilet and he talk to me all the time when I sitt in the
toilet, those people are toatal dirty shit perverts.
And than he is joking , "hehe you are thin, you have no chance in fighting me."
"You just try to atack me I am efficient going to hit you in the head and send into coma".
Problem is that he keep distance of few kilometer and I have no chance to find out who he/she is.
3. Stalking and no privacy. He is stalking on me day and night , in shower, toilet, when doing my
intimacy things and more. He has no respect for privacy. Dirty perverts.
Right what I know :
- someone can communicate with me using telepathy
- some percent of people can receive telepathic messages of me
- some people started money collecting and they collected big money
- money has been collected in Sweden, Norway and few other places
- it should be illegal money transfer in size of 250 000 - 600 000 Euro , also illegal paiments to shit perverts
( what is really interesting they do not care about "illegal money transfer", "illegal paiments to terrorize someone",
"illegal cash transfers",
they do not care that I am going to call police and tell them this . )
What kind of people is transfering hunderts of tousend Euro and using it to terrorize someone and just do
not care for police and Justice.
