Originally posted by Zampanó
I'm finding it very difficult to phrase this diplomatically so forgive me if I just lecture:In literature, a tragic flaw is a character trait that ultimately leads to a character's downfall. Oftentimes this trait is one that would be positive in any other situation. The example through which I learned the concept is Chiuna Achebe's Things Fall Apart (intro to Lit ftw) where a strong, honorable family leader is utterly bewildered by a new world order (colonialism). The book talks about a lot of things, but the basic plot is that the main character would be a fantastic leader under the old ways, but that strength undermines his position after the Europeans show up.
Anakin is in a similar situation. He is strong-willed, loyal, and intensely uncomfortable with dishonesty. These are all traits that can be positive. However, his journey finds him in places where those are all liabilities. Thus, the basic criteria are fulfilled for a tragic flaw.
So, I believe that I have clarified my use of the term "tragic," with which you initially disagreed. It now falls to me to defend the idea that:
[list=a][*]Qui Gon Jinn would have done a better job than Kenobi
[*]The relationship between Jinn and Kenobi imparts some level of irony to Kenobi's failure
[*]The Star Wars saga is more compelling because of [a] and [b]
[/list]
I obviously cannot prove conclusively that Jinn would have done a better job. However, I would like to point out that the series of YA books chronicling Obi Wan Kenobi's life as a padawan paints him in much the same light as Anakin. An impulsive, reckless padawan ignores the rules of the Order to do what he feels is right, ultimately resulting in his expulsion/departure from the order. Yeah, Kenobi quits being a Jedi for a little while. Crazy, right? Well, Jinn is able to guide one padawan through the darkness. [I also have a half formed point about the unifying versus the living Force, but I can't remember which one was Jinn's favorite.]Jinn's experience and wisdom should be sufficient to allow him to retain the authority position that Kenobi relinquished the second he began thinking of Anakin as "brother." The novelization of RotS calls Kenobi "the perfect Jedi" but he has one attachment: Anakin. Jinn would have maintained a more traditional Master/Apprentice bond, simply because of the age gap.
So, in my mind at least, there are a few reasons to believe that Jinn was capable of doing a better job than Kenobi. Now to the ironic part: Kenobi was at least partially formed by Jinn's teaching. That is to say, parts of his personality and mentality were comprised of what he learned from Jinn. It is a bit ironic that where Jinn succeeded (specifically, keeping his padawan in the Jedi Order) Kenobi failed spectacularly. Of all the skills to pick up, that seems like one of the most important. "Hey this is the Chosen One. Make sure he's a Jedi. don't let him quit."
Last letter in the list:
Those are the reasons I think (a) and (b). In my mind, the tragic loss of Qui Gon Jinn is the only plotworthy element in TPM. Thus: (c).Edit: didn't proofread this; it took forever to write. Forgive me if it is incoherent.
Hmm, that was nicely written. I appreciate well-expressed writing (as a writer myself). 🙂
There are just a few parts I wish to discuss.
One, I am more than aware as to what a tragic flaw is, having written a handful of essays on tragic heroes throughout high school. And I've read Things Fall Apart years ago, as well (RIP Ikemefuna!). What made Okonkwo compelling and a classic tragic hero was, as you mentioned, his venerable characteristics (strength, courage, dedication) mixed with his flaw(s) (his fear of becoming like Unoka [effeminate, weak, useless]; his inability to change with the European arrival).
However, in the movies, Anakin's admirable qualities failed to appear. His emotional personality and flaws dominated his redeemable traits to the extent he comes off as completely unsympathetic to the audience.
I understand what you are saying, but I have some reservations on the terms you describe Anakin's positive qualities.
1. "Strong-willed." Sure, he is determined to get the things he wants. But he's rather obstinate instead.
2. "Loyal?" He is only loyal to Padme and Shmi. Apart from those two, he disobeys Obi-Wan time and time again. He disobeys Windu and screws him later. He betrays the entire Jedi Council by revealing its motives to Palpatine. And then of course he backstabs the entire Order. He is rapacious to the extent that he will throw away any bonds of allegiance to secure his desires.
3. "Intensely uncomfortable with dishonesty." True, except the ironic scene in which he finds out Palpatine completely deceived the entire galaxy (and orchestrated a war that caused titanic destruction and casualties), spares him, and later accepts him as his master because he needed to get what he wanted from Sidious.
As I wrote in Revan-Anakin thread:
"In the Prequel Trilogy, especially in AOTC, Anakin is depicted as querulous, creepy, arrogant, and rapacious. His attitude doesn’t improve in ROTS, except that he has become extremely gullible. His fear of losing Padme, ultimately a product of his unsympathetic personality, leads to his fall to the Dark Side. There is almost nothing ‘tragic’ about his downfall; yes, he wanted to save the one he loved. However, he was blinded by intoxicating, unnatural attachment. "
Anakin seemed to be falling the moment we see him in AOTC. This is why I said this earlier: "What makes it tragic is the character's intentions and personality beforehand that becomes twisted as a result of his/her actions and experiences."
Except, nothing becomes twisted. It starts off that way without any explanation in the movie other than Obi-Wan's orthodox teachings (which are shown to be perfectly competent and logical to the viewers)
I agree with your ABC explanation. That was nicely done. It's just the notion that Jinn might have prevented Anakin from becoming terribly angst-y is never once hinted at in the movie, and instead we see Anakin acting like a brat and Kenobi trying his best to get his Padawan to grow the fvck up.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
However, in the movies, Anakin's admirable qualities failed to appear. His emotional personality and flaws dominated his redeemable traits to the extent he comes off as completely unsympathetic to the audience.
I find myself agreeing with this, only because AotC Anakin was generally an unlikable character. His petulant nature throughout drove a wedge between him and others around him, and had it been better balanced with compassion and understanding, he would have been far more likable.
1. "Strong-willed." Sure, he is determined to get the things he wants. But he's rather obstinate instead.
Being obstinate and being strong-willed are not mutually exclusive though. To have survived and thrived in his younger life as a slave required willpower to avoid giving up or being crushed. He retained that defiant strength throughout his youth and into adulthood. Just because he's head strong and self centered doesn't mean he's weak-willed. The power to force his body to crawl up that sand while burning and in mortal danger on Mustafar speaks for itself.
2. "Loyal?" He is only loyal to Padme and Shmi. Apart from those two, he disobeys Obi-Wan time and time again. He disobeys Windu and screws him later. He betrays the entire Jedi Council by revealing its motives to Palpatine. And then of course he backstabs the entire Order. He is rapacious to the extent that he will throw away any bonds of allegiance to secure his desires.
Anakin's sense of loyalty is made difficult to detect because of his self-centered moral code, but it's still present. In RotS, he refuses to leave Obi-Wan behind, showing fierce loyalty in the face of Palpatine's suggestion to bring his master back from certain death. He is loyal to Padme in the sense that he doesn't cheat on her, he clings to her. True, his version of love is horribly flawed, but it is arguably loyal nonetheless. His love for his mother was the strongest and most enduring.
This strong conviction, had it been in a man less selfish, would have been an honorable trait.
3. "Intensely uncomfortable with dishonesty." True, except the ironic scene in which he finds out Palpatine completely deceived the entire galaxy (and orchestrated a war that caused titanic destruction and casualties), spares him, and later accepts him as his master because he needed to get what he wanted from Sidious.
This does align with Anakin's troublesome moral code though. He views everything in the galaxy as how it pertains to him and ultimately his need for Palpatine's cure transcends whatever subjective beliefs he has about political deception.
That being said, Anakin's lack of falsehoods is not because it's immoral, but because he doesn't see the need for obfuscation and manipulation. This is a guy who routinely attacks everything head-on.
Except, nothing becomes twisted. It starts off that way without any explanation in the movie other than Obi-Wan's orthodox teachings (which are shown to be perfectly competent and logical to the viewers)
Obi-Wan's teachings seem very logical, and had Anakin been raised as a Jedi and not as a slave with his mother, he likely would have succeeded. But Obi-Wan's failure to teach Anakin is reflective of the failure of the Order as a whole to adapt to students who are not raised into obedience.
I agree with your ABC explanation. That was nicely done. It's just the notion that Jinn might have prevented Anakin from becoming terribly angst-y is never once hinted at in the movie, and instead we see Anakin acting like a brat and Kenobi trying his best to get his Padawan to grow the fvck up.
Qui-Gon certainly does seem to be more likely to identify with and guide Anakin. He's both wise and perceptive, and he maintains the mentor-student distance appropriately. It's sometimes best to match the student with a teacher closer to their learning style. Mace would be too strict and unyielding. Yoda would be too cryptic, always stressing vague unknowns and patience. Obi-Wan, well... we saw what happened there. He could not control Anakin. Qui-Gon, of the Jedi we know, would have had the best chance.
But I still think Palpatine/Sidious played a bigger part in his eventual fall, and regardless of teachers, the Sith were too well entrenched and too powerful to be denied.