Mark Twain's assault on Christianity

Originally posted by TacDavey
Why? Why is the question of "was there really a Garden of Eden" important to every Christian?

I do study it. But the question of metaphor verses reality in these particular stories seems ultimately unimportant to me.

Originally posted by Digi
It actually makes some sense if you go back to the idea that religion was (and to some extent probably still is) evolutionarily advantageous because it eliminates cognitive dissonance in people so that they can focus on the more immediate concerns of survival. Once the item is "resolved," even if it isn't fully explored intellectually, the evolutionary ideal is achieved. A further curiosity wouldn't continue to be advantageous at that point. So, simply put, the species probably isn't programmed for continued intellectual inquiry. Once we come to a conclusion that satisfies us in philosophical or intellectual matters, there's no evolutionary advantage to going further because at that point it's distracting us from (historically) more important matters like hunting and gathering.

lol, conceded. I have no idea. I wasn't that type of Christian, so I don't have that perspective. Might be part of the reason I no longer am one.

Another thing that always bugs me, is when people tell me their religion is metaphorical, but when I ask them what it's a metaphor for, they have no idea. I mean, I could understand it if they think they couldn't explain it well enough to me. But it seems like so many people I have talked to haven't even asked themselves this basic question; whereas, I wouldn't even consider calling myself a believer of an ideology if I didn't think I had a deep understanding of it.

Most can easily be worked into some moral, and if it's from the Old Testament it's usually about obedience to God, so that isn't something I've encountered quite as much (maybe because I'm not asking that question). But I see your point. It comes back to the same idea of critical analysis and thorough understanding, which is sorely lacking oftentimes.

Originally posted by Digi
Most can easily be worked into some moral, and if it's from the Old Testament it's usually about obedience to God, so that isn't something I've encountered quite as much (maybe because I'm not asking that question). But I see your point. It comes back to the same idea of critical analysis and thorough understanding, which is sorely lacking oftentimes.

Twain, right. Sorry we got off topic.

Originally posted by Digi
Physically impossible given the mountains of evidence we have against it and the physical laws of our universe. How do you justify it literally happening? I'm genuinely curious.

I might point out that "reasons to believe it didn't happen" and "physically impossible for it to happen" are not the same thing. Second, God has the ability to mess with the laws of physics at a whim.

I fully believe it would have been a super natural event. Obviously it's not normal for the world to flood. And outside of God's intervention it wouldn't.

Originally posted by Digi
I would imagine the literal veracity of many such stories would have quite a large bearing on your view of the universe and God's role in it. To me, saying it doesn't matter is just a lack of imagination. Let's say, to return to the earlier analogy, that I wasn't sure if Aesop's Fables were real or not. If they are, holy shit, animals can talk and have highly developed senses of morality. It would utterly change the way I view the world. So too with the Ark. We're in a vastly different universe if the Ark happened, despite all scientific evidence to the contrary, than we are if the universe follows logical rules and the Ark story is just metaphor.

I don't think my view of God or Christianity would change very drastically depending on whether there was a world wide flood or it there was a garden. I believe God has the ability to do these things. Whether He ever did or not seems irrelevant.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but there was no Christian revitalization when Jonah and the Whale was found to have never happened.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Because its the word of God? I have trouble fathoming how you could consider anything God says to be "unimportant". I try and study the words of people I consider "great thinkers" for guidance in my own life, and God would be an infinitely greater mind than any human; the value of understanding his words should be infinitely important.

Sure, I think it's important to study the word of God. But there are certainly some things in the Bible that are more important than others. For example,

Imagine a Christian who never heard the story of Noah and the Ark. Would this person's views on Christianity be very different for anyone elses? Probably not.

Think about a Christian who had no idea about Jesus and had no idea that worshiping false gods was a sin. Now that person would have a drastically different view of Christianity.

Between knowing if God really made the earth in a literal six days and knowing that worshiping false gods was a sin, doesn't one of those seem expendable information to you?

Meh. Noah's Flood story was just a ripoff of the story from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Divine inspiration my ass, they ripped off Akkadian fiction.

The Akkadian's came from Noah's nutsack.

Canon.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Meh. Noah's Flood story was just a ripoff of the story from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Divine inspiration my ass, they ripped off Akkadian fiction.

True, but that isn't the discussion I've been having with Tac.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Sure, I think it's important to study the word of God. But there are certainly some things in the Bible that are more important than others. For example,

Imagine a Christian who never heard the story of Noah and the Ark. Would this person's views on Christianity be very different for anyone elses? Probably not.

Think about a Christian who had no idea about Jesus and had no idea that worshiping false gods was a sin. Now that person would have a drastically different view of Christianity.

Between knowing if God really made the earth in a literal six days and knowing that worshiping false gods was a sin, doesn't one of those seem expendable information to you?

Originally posted by King Kandy
But you aren't a christian who "never heard of this", you have the internet and you have a Bible, you are free to read up to your hearts content. And personally it seems blasphemous to say any word of God is "expendable".

Mmm. I'll admit "expendable" was probably the wrong choice of words.

I guess I can see your point. Even if it doesn't change much concerning my beliefs I suppose I shouldn't just ignore it.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Mmm. I'll admit "expendable" was probably the wrong choice of words.

I guess I can see your point. Even if it doesn't change much concerning my beliefs I suppose I shouldn't just ignore it.

There's a famous philosopher whose name I'm not going to recall atm. But he was an adamant atheist, but considered full-blown, Bible-memorizing evangelical Christians to be the 2nd most acceptable belief system. Because if you actually, truly believed, nothing less than total adherence and devotion makes sense.

Like if you're caught cheating, then pray to God to forgive your soul. If you actually, completely believed that God existed, he was always watching you, and that heaven existed, you never would have cheated and would be living a vastly different life.

Most less-than-total religious adherence is culturally, not intrinsically driven.

Originally posted by Digi
Most less-than-total religious adherence is culturally, not intrinsically driven.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Thanks for saying that! I had been fumbling around for the right word to describe my feelings on morality in other threads, when I was trying to argue that you aren't "moral" unless you actually understand why what you're doing is a good thing. What I was trying to say, is that your morals should be intrinsically driven, that you should do them because you know that they are the right thing. Not because you were told to do them by someone else.

😊 ...I'm here to help.

I like you much better now that we talk in the religious forum. Weird that I knew of you for years over in comics but didn't really cross paths with you much.

Apparently I warned you back in '07 though. Gotta keep you peons in line.

dgrin

{edit} not that I didn't like you before, but I just wanted to extend the compliment. And we also "crossed" in tourneys of course, though I don't remember many dealings even in those (I think we fought maybe once in the HH business?).

Back on the Twain topic, it seems to me Twain was just doing what all good authors do - which is to make fun of something reverenced.

C.S. Lewis was one of these people, too, when he wrote "The Screwtape Letters." Do we call this an assault on Christianity? Of course not.

I think the word "assault" sounds like it comes from the vocabulary of somebody who must quanch all information that finds what he believes in false, negative, untrue, and a gross insult.

We just have to be more open-minded than that!!

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Back on the Twain topic, it seems to me Twain was just doing what all good authors do - which is to make fun of something reverenced.

C.S. Lewis was one of these people, too, when he wrote "The Screwtape Letters." Do we call this an assault on Christianity? Of course not.

I think the word "assault" sounds like it comes from the vocabulary of somebody who must quanch all information that finds what he believes in false, negative, untrue, and a gross insult.

We just have to be more open-minded than that!!