Canada upholds a woman's right to choose.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, I'm still not convinced there are exact psychological disorders that happen after birth that force mother's against their will to kill their babies. In fact, it goes against the very nature of a mother to want to protect her child.

Seems like using Postpartum Depression as a scapegoat to blame-shift. I hate blame-shifting. eg "My child was an angel; it was the video-games that made him take a hammer to his classmate's head". I call BS.

so like, what, you are questioning if postpartum depression is a real thing? you want an explanation of how a woman could possibly come to such a deranged type of cognition?

Like, is it that you don't understand how it could work, or that you just don't care and believe it doesn't matter?

well, for one, nobody actually doing research on video games suggests that kind of relation, so the exaggeration isn't helping your point. The evidence that does exist on video games is controversial but generally supports that someone who is exposed to more violent media is more likely to access a violent schema for behaviour, like how you see kids reenacting karate movies they just saw.

in the case of a woman just after child birth, you have massive changes in the person's life mixed with massive changes in their hormones... it would be astounding if this didn't cause psychological problems...

Originally posted by Robtard
Seems to me the child being born is what caused her the grief that lead to her killing her baby and thereby "ruining her life."

I'm more hung up on the scapegoating and blame-shifting.

I fail to see how this logic is any different than the type that calls someone a terrorist sympathizer for pointing out that American military bases in Saudi Arabia are a cause for 9-11.

Just because people look for root causes that don't vilify individuals, doesn't mean they are saying they don't deserve the blame. Certainly, this woman is responsible, and our courts have found her such

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm guessing "abide by conditions" means mandatory counseling. There hardly seems to be anything else worth doing.

What is it that you think execution or life in prison would accomplish in this case? The baby isn't coming back. She isn't going to go on a killing spree. It's not going to discourage anyone else from doing the same.

Possible. For one, if the reasoning for her actions was "birth induced insanity", then the very least that could be done is a court mandated hysterectomy. That would ensure she never suffers this act again, that poor woman.

She'll never do it again. Or see above. But if we're using the "well, the victim is dead already, so punishing her will serve no purpose" attitude, that can be said for many first time murderers. Should we all get one free-pass to kill?

Originally posted by inimalist
so like, what, you are questioning if postpartum depression is a real thing? you want an explanation of how a woman could possibly come to such a deranged type of cognition?

Like, is it that you don't understand how it could work, or that you just don't care and believe it doesn't matter?

well, for one, nobody actually doing research on video games suggests that kind of relation, so the exaggeration isn't helping your point. The evidence that does exist on video games is controversial but generally supports that someone who is exposed to more violent media is more likely to access a violent schema for behaviour, like how you see kids reenacting karate movies they just saw.

in the case of a woman just after child birth, you have massive changes in the person's life mixed with massive changes in their hormones... it would be astounding if this didn't cause psychological problems...

I understand it's a real thing, as I've seen a new mother suffer depression after child-birth(friend's wife).

I question whether it leads to want to strangle your infant with some twine.

Originally posted by Robtard
Seems to me the child being born is what caused her the grief that lead to her killing her baby and thereby "ruining her life."

Because stress is imaginary, right? And raising babies is easy!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Because stress is imaginary, right? And raising babies is easy!

No and no. What does that have to do with what I said though?

Originally posted by Robtard
Possible. For one, if the reasoning for her actions was "birth induced insanity", then the very least that could be done is a court mandated hysterectomy. That would ensure she never suffers this act again, that poor woman.

Or she could get counseling and have this added to her psychiatric history so nurses will keep an eye on her if she has another kid.

You're awfully focused on finding a way to punish her but you've yet to identify what it will accomplish. I'd say living with the knowledge that a) you killed your child and b) its the only thing most people will care about for the rest of your life it a substatial punishment anyway.

Originally posted by Robtard
Should we all get one free-pass to kill?

Yes we should, that's exactly the point I was making.

Originally posted by inimalist
what do you want me to answer more directly?

The stupidity behind the idea that throwing your newborn child into a trashcan is any different from me walking up to you in a pub and caving your head in with a wrench? I see you're having that discussion with Rob right at this moment, so I'll just observe that.

- Canadian prisons are far superior to American ones, and this is without bringing up privatization

This is also a bit irrelevent, as no one's said otherwise in here, hence my statement that you're dodging.

Like, you've compared/contrasted America's legal system to Canada's legal system several times now, even though no one has contested it. In fact, looking back through the thread, you're the first person in here to bring up America's justice system at all.

I'd gotten the impression that you believe that America's justice system being less efficent than Canadas somehow vindiciates Canada's wierd belief that killing a newborn deserves more leniency on the part of the killer than killing an adult. If I was mistaken, then I apologize.

So instead of dropping the baby off at an orphanage or at some random neighbor's doorstep, she took the one approach that's going to forever haunt her. She's an idiot.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Or she could get counseling and have this added to her psychiatric history to keep it from happening again. You're awfully focused on finding a way to punish her but you've yet to identify what it will accomplish.

Yes we should, that's exactly the point I was making.

Counseling can fail, I think we can all agree with that. So a hysterectomy is more punishment than say life in prison, death-penalty or the possibility of her getting pregnant again and "suffering" again from flipping out and strangling another infant of hers? I disagree, the hysterectomy is far more compassionate.

Sarcasm aside, you did use the "crime's already happened and punishing her won't bring the baby back" angle, so I ask, why is this just for mother who kills their newborn(s)? Seems sexist for a start.

Originally posted by Robtard
I understand it's a real thing, as I've seen a new mother suffer depression after child-birth(friend's wife).

I question whether it leads to want to strangle your infant with some twine.

in different people it will manifest in very different ways.

like with most suicide and other types of completely deranged cognition, I'd imagine it is something that presents itself as an immediate and accessible solution to a problem when your own mental state is preventing you from seeing other reasonable options.

I'm not sure I can give you an a-b-c sort of sequence of events, but depression is able to cause people to forgo their own survival instinct and kill themselves, it certainly isn't that far of a jump to killing the child, especially when it is likely that the child is seen as a major cause in what is driving your life out of control. There wont be a logical reason, like, one that I could explain that you will go "oh, I see why she did it now", it is illogical, that is almost the definition of why it is a mental health disorder.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
The stupidity behind the idea that throwing your newborn child into a trashcan is any different from me walking up to you in a pub and caving your head in with a wrench? I see you're having that discussion with Rob right at this moment, so I'll just observe that.

if you don't consider the motivation or causes of crime to be important in the sentencing and treatment of criminals, then I can see where you are coming from.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
This is also a bit irrelevent, as no one's said otherwise in here, hence my statement that you're dodging.

Like, you've compared/contrasted America's legal system to Canada's legal system several times now, even though no one has contested it. In fact, looking back through the thread, you're the first person in here to bring up America's justice system at all.

I'd gotten the impression that you believe that America's justice system being less efficent than Canadas somehow vindiciates Canada's wierd belief that killing a newborn deserves more leniency on the part of the killer than killing an adult. If I was mistaken, then I apologize.

I would argue the approach we have to crime plays a major role in why our nations have different rates of recidivism. You are probably right though, it was more of a tangent from the point that, in Canada, making sure we get an eye for an eye is not a priority of the Justice System.

Originally posted by inimalist
in different people it will manifest in very different ways.

like with most suicide and other types of completely deranged cognition, I'd imagine it is something that presents itself as an immediate and accessible solution to a problem when your own mental state is preventing you from seeing other reasonable options.

I'm not sure I can give you an a-b-c sort of sequence of events, but depression is able to cause people to forgo their own survival instinct and kill themselves, it certainly isn't that far of a jump to killing the child, especially when it is likely that the child is seen as a major cause in what is driving your life out of control. There wont be a logical reason, like, one that I could explain that you will go "oh, I see why she did it now", it is illogical, that is almost the definition of why it is a mental health disorder.

Seems like scapegoating to me. But okay.

Where is the line drawn anyways? New mother flips-out and kills her neighbor, could that be some sort of Postpartum Depression manifestation and therefore she's not to be tried for murder?

Originally posted by Robtard
Seems like scapegoating to me. But okay.

Where is the line drawn anyways? New mother flips-out and kills her neighbor, could that be some sort of Postpartum Depression manifestation and therefore she's not to be tried for murder?

it would be a case by case thing, but clearly that poses more of a danger to society and should be treated as such

like, if it was found that a person had a tumor that caused them to act violently, would you call that a "scape-goat"?

Originally posted by inimalist
it would be a case by case thing, but clearly that poses more of a danger to society and should be treated as such

like, if it was found that a person had a tumor that caused them to act violently, would you call that a "scape-goat"?

A brain-tumor that affects behavior can be verified.

Can Baby-Strangling-Depression?

Originally posted by Robtard
A brain-tumor that affects behavior can be verified.

Can Baby-Strangling-Depression?

verified how?

theoretically, with a tumor, all you can say is that once it was removed, the behaviour stopped. This woman has, afaik, no prior history of violence and was evaluated by psychologists, thats about as verified as anything regarding human behaviour is going to get. You wouldn't expect to find "baby killing" on an fmri scan, if that is what you mean.

I could have sworn I posted on the very first page postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. I found that post in my history (you can just click back or re-open tabs in Chrome/Firefox and it maintains the history including un-submitted posts) but I failed to submit it, I guess.

Anyway, yes, I want to point out that some new moms lose their shit during and after their pregnancies.

I do not know enough about the case to make an informed opinion. I cannot auto-condemn her because her actions are abhorrent.

And removing her uterus so she doesn't commit such an atrocity again is no necessarily "bad", but it is quite fascist and meddlesome of any government to make such a ruling. How about rehab, counseling, and closely monitored (by professionals, not the government) subsequent pregnancies from her?

Originally posted by Robtard
Possible. For one, if the reasoning for her actions was "birth induced insanity", then the very least that could be done is a court mandated hysterectomy. That would ensure she never suffers this act again, that poor woman.

😆 😆 😆

I detect a wee bit o' sarcasm.

Originally posted by Robtard
Should we all get one free-pass to kill?

Then a person contemplating their first "try" should make it worth it by doing a synchronized mass murder.

Originally posted by inimalist
verified how?

theoretically, with a tumor, all you can say is that once it was removed, the behaviour stopped. This woman has, afaik, no prior history of violence and was evaluated by psychologists, thats about as verified as anything regarding human behaviour is going to get. You wouldn't expect to find "baby killing" on an fmri scan, if that is what you mean.

Cos there's real life examples of people acting abnormally when they had a tumor growing on their brain. See Ted Kennedy, dude broke out into incoherent song during senate; turns out he has a massive lump in his noggin.

There's probably quite a few murderers who have had no prior history of violence.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And removing her uterus so she doesn't commit such an atrocity again is no necessarily "bad", but it is quite fascist and meddlesome of any government to make such a ruling. How about rehab, counseling, and closely monitored (by professionals, not the government) subsequent pregnancies from her?

😆 😆 😆

I detect a wee bit o' sarcasm.

Then a person contemplating their first "try" should make it worth it by doing a synchronized mass murder.

So is imprisoning people and telling them what they can and can not do, that's just as fascist. Again, counseling can/does fail. Think about this poor woman suffering another like event, you monster.

Maybe.

Only if we allow the new mothers to kill twins, triples etc. Otherwise, one free kill only.

Originally posted by Robtard
Cos there's real life examples of people acting abnormally when they had a tumor growing on their brain. See Ted Kennedy, dude broke out into incoherent song during senate; turns out he has a massive lump in his noggin.

There's probably quite a few murderers who have had no prior history of violence.

this just sounds like you are questioning whether postpardom depression is a thing, though... as if there aren't stories of this exact type of thing dating back hundreds, if not thousands of years

Originally posted by inimalist
this just sounds like you are questioning whether postpardom depression is a thing, though... as if there aren't stories of this exact type of thing dating back hundreds, if not thousands of years

We've been over this. I'm not denying that PD exist, I'm questioning whether is causes a mother to strangle her baby or if it's just being used as an excuse to blame-shift instead of just saying "ok, this woman is a murderer".