Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
when did all of the showings of him not needing it stop being cannon, there aremore showings of him not needing it than otherwise
I haven't read every single one of Juggernaut's appearances to say for certain either way but in a fair amount of his appearances, he attributes his durability to his force field and gets physically affected without it. At the very least, you can't have as adamant of a stance as you do.
The other problem with Juggernaut is that people take something small and run with it. A writer might have Cain no sell a punch from like f*cking Colossus and his fans take that as proof that nothing can harm him including the elites which is just silly.
This isn't to say Juggernaut doesn't have his high points. Cannonball knocked himself out flying into Cain once.
I don't dislike Juggernaut contrary to popular believe but I have a real problem when people pretend nothing can or ever has harmed him. I mean, I've seen idiots argue multiple times that not even Odin can put him down straight up or something and these kind of stances are just mind boggling to me.
You say that like it's a common thing.
How many times has he been knocked out? How many times has he bled, compared to bricks like Thor or Superman?
Conquests attacks may have caused him pain, but they didn't injure him.. None of the physical attacks in that arc did.
Worthy Juggernaut having his blood boiled and not even being bothered by it, shrugging off all physical attacks, that's all things classic Juggernaut is capable of..
Originally posted by cdtm
You say that like it's a common thing.How many times has he been knocked out? How many times has he bled, compared to bricks like Thor or Superman?
Juggernaut being hurt? It's happened often enough that at the very least the force field reliability can be argued as an inconsistency.
Without mental attacks being involved in some way? Like maybe once or twice, it a rare occurrence. Then again, he usually fights the X-men and their strongmen is Colossus. If you want to get really specific we can analyze all his combat showings to reach some sort of average. He can't have had too many battles.
Obviously Cain hasn't bled nearly as many times as Thor/Superman (On the flip side they also have higher highs) but I'm not arguing Cain is less durable than them or anything. But if you take away the force field and put him in a slug fest with either of the two, it's not going to be one sided by any means like some pretend. It'll go back and forth, Cain will be getting rocked.
This also touches on a problem I mentioned earlier that tends to spring up with Cain. If he gets hurt and doesn't start bleeding or no sells a punch from Colossus, it's not in itself evidence that he can't bleed or be hurt.
Originally posted by cdtm
Conquests attacks may have caused him pain, but they didn't injure him.. None of the physical attacks in that arc did.
Not sure if serious.
Originally posted by cdtm
Worthy Juggernaut having his blood boiled and not even being bothered by it, shrugging off all physical attacks, that's all things classic Juggernaut is capable of..
I don't think you can say for sure. Juggernaut did have a high end showing (The D'Spayre mini) but at the same time exotic attacks have been proven effective such as the scene with Nimrod or Rogue's touch.
We'll see how the power of the Juggernaut compares to the power of the Worthy.
Cain will get staggered, sure. He still has human equilibrium, and apparently can feel pain to some degree. By and large, physical force alone hasn't put him down, though, even when War Hulk with his celestial tech upgrades knocked him around.
There's a reason World War Hulk opted for battlefield removal, instead of trying to beat him down like he did nearly everyone else in that storyline.
Originally posted by cdtm
Cain will get staggered, sure. He still has human equilibrium, and apparently can feel pain to some degree. By and large, physical force alone hasn't put him down, though, even when War Hulk knocked him around.There's a reason World War Hulk opted for battlefield removal, instead of trying to beat him down like he did nearly everyone else in that storyline.
He can feel pain and based on almost every encounter I've seen of him with an elite strong men, his win is not a foregone conclusion. I'd wager that War Hulk would have taken Cain down sooner or later based on their fight.
Be careful. It doesn't necessarily mean that sufficient physical force can't put him down which is the kind of thinking I have a problem with when it comes to the Juggernaut. For the record, Thor came pretty close to knocking Juggernaut out after he removed his force field. Tbf, DeFalco wrote a pretty powerful Thor.
Green Scar didn't slug it out with Juggernaut because he knew for the fight to have an actual conclusion, it'd take longer than he could afford. It's not an admittance of inferiority if that's what you're implying.
There's also the fact the go to method of defeating Juggernaut for non psychics is battlefield removal. If he could be KOed by physical force, it probably would have happened by now... It's not like he hasn't fought Hulk enough times under different writers, ortaken on other "elite strongmen"..
Pak also has Skaar knock Juggernaut into orbit, so that's twice he wrote the character against someone he's trying to build up, and twice he didn't have him KOed by physical force.. And again, Pak had Hulk physically defeat EVERYONE in that arc, except Juggernaut. So why only him? Why have him knock out Thing, break Colossus's hands, knock out Zom possessed Strange, beat down Sentry, but not Juggernaut?
Originally posted by cdtm
There's also the fact the go to method of defeating Juggernaut for non psychics is battlefield removal. If he could be KOed by physical force, it probably would have happened by now... It's not like he hasn't fought Hulk enough times under different writers, ortaken on other "elite strongmen"..
So what are you arguing, that he can't be knocked out by beings in his weight class? He's been rocked, hurt, or worn down by their attacks on different occasions. Removing it as a possibility is not something I'd be comfortable with based on history. I'm not saying it would happen often (It's rare enough between most peers) but if it were to happen, it's not something I'd be surprised by. It might never happen but it's still a possibility. Under at least one writer, it was a real danger and DeFalco wrote an incredibly potent Juggernaut.
Originally posted by cdtm
Pak also has Skaar knock Juggernaut into orbit, so that's twice he wrote the character against someone he's trying to build up, and twice he didn't have him KOed by physical force.. And again, Pak had Hulk physically defeat EVERYONE in that arc, except Juggernaut. So why only him? Why have him knock out Thing, break Colossus's hands, knock out Zom possessed Strange, beat down Sentry, but not Juggernaut?
Your argument and line of thinking is flawed for more than one reason. Getting rid of Juggernaut was not an admission of inferiority but as a result of time running out, that was made pretty clear in the story. Hulk punting Monroe into the next state or entrapping Emma isn't an admission that he couldn't beat them straight up either. As a matter of fact, I would strongly argue Green Scar favored himself against Cain based on his dialogue. I'd also like to point out that the Juggernaut/Green Scar fight wasn't written by Pak and despite his fanboyism, when he likes a character, he balances shit out. Sentry and Strange were given a lot of respect.
@cdtm
"Pak also has Skaar knock Juggernaut into orbit, so that's twice he wrote the character against someone he's trying to build up, and twice he didn't have him KOed by physical force.. And again, Pak had Hulk physically defeat EVERYONE in that arc, except Juggernaut."
actually during the x-men mini the writer is Gage Christos not Pak,
also in Hulk 634 Green Scar say:"but even in the war in new york,even yesterday in vegas,i was holding back"
pretty clear..........
Originally posted by Sr J-BiebThey beat the living shit out of each other and ironically destroyed a few cities , but colossus enchantment overpowered the serpents when he used his unstoppability vs kuurts unstoppability
Wasn't current Colossus and Juggernaut beating each other to the point of bleeding?
Originally posted by Colossus-Big CI hope you know that isn't a good thing when you're trying to prove someone is invincible
They beat the living shit out of each other and ironically destroyed a few cities , but colossus enchantment overpowered the serpents when he used his unstoppability vs kuurts unstoppability
But what would you know, like really
I haven't stopped by to get the comic yet but according to the guy I know,
Spoiler:I hope Attuma does well against the Defenders.
the two were beating the piss out of each other and Cain proves to be stronger. Colossus uses some intelligence and balances it out with his unstoppable enchantment, then the two collide and Cain's runes build to critical mass or something.It should be noted that Cytorrak also withdrew any power he invested in Cain. So it's all Serpent at this point.
If they were drawing blood or whatever, no one can sit there and claim that Juggernaut is undeniably invincible without his force field or something. Not with a straight face.