CHRISTIANITY or SPIRITUALITY?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But we do know, a posteriori, empirically, that we don't yet have explanations for (note the use of "as of yet"😉. That's why science still exists. It's actually a really bizarre thing to include on a list of reasons for being a theist.

sure, there are lots of things we cannot explain in full

however, almost 100% of the time, people making the "science can't explain" argument are saying "science doesn't validate my own interpretation of events"

I'd agree, when talking about "how did the universe come to be" or "what are the origins of life", yes, the unknown-ness of these things is a terrible reason to believe, however, things like "I saw a ghost" or "I have a spiritual feeling" or "I experienced something" have incredibly mundane and simple explanations most times.

Being "open" to spiritual energies is rather a statement about being unsatisfied with explanations for those things that don't validate the idea that spiritual energies exist.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't want to assume too much so what is "they"?

Science not yet having explanations for everything.
Being spiritual or theistic.

I could understand the connection between thinking science won't every explain everything (or will never has a satisfying explanation). It's the 'yet' that trips me up, that implies the answers are coming.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Science not yet having explanations for everything.
Being spiritual or theistic.

I could understand the connection between thinking science won't every explain everything (or will never has a satisfying explanation). It's the 'yet' that trips me up, that implies the answers are coming.

Oh, okay. I'm glad I asked because that is not what I thought you meant.

Anyway, I don't understand why the trips you up. For me, that seems the natural progression of man: to unlock all the secrets of the supernatural.

You would not be surprised if neuroscientists figured out how we can link two brains with meditation IF the mechanism they found for it was within the realm of natural, correct? Right now...it just seems supernatural.

What if God was all natural and not actually a creator of the universe? Meaning, there was not "first cause" or "prime mover" but the spiritual is just natural, too? Then it becomes easier to think science will completely subsume religion, entirely. Sometimes...I think the "god" that we know is actually a product of this universe or something like that (but a literal entity...not a fictional thought like smartasses will try and twist my words to mean).

Originally posted by dadudemon
You would not be surprised if neuroscientists figured out how we can link two brains with meditation IF the mechanism they found for it was within the realm of natural, correct?

I'd be astounded, as that experience has incredibly mundane explanations now that require no appeal to whatever weirdness it might be that produced it, there is no conceivable mechanism through which it could occur, it would overturn absolutely everything we understand about neuronal patterns of firing and communication, and the implications for everyday life are such that we can almost say for sure it isn't happening.

To hold out for "science will some day explain it" to describe something like that is, literally, the same as saying, "I don't accept the current scientific understanding because it is not in line with my a priori beliefs about what brains are capable of"

Originally posted by inimalist
I'd be astounded, as that experience has incredibly mundane explanations now that require no appeal to whatever weirdness it might be that produced it, there is no conceivable mechanism through which it could occur, it would overturn absolutely everything we understand about neuronal patterns of firing and communication, and the implications for everyday life are such that we can almost say for sure it isn't happening.

Really?

So they figured out how the brains were "linking up" after they mediated together for 15 minutes...even when isolating one of them in a Faraday cage.

Originally posted by inimalist
To hold out for "science will some day explain it" to describe something like that is, literally, the same as saying, "I don't accept the current scientific understanding because it is not in line with my a priori beliefs about what brains are capable of"

No, that's like thinking that what people currently think is supernatural will eventually be explained in perfectly natural terms.

Make sure you don't strawman my point, please.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Really?

So they figured out how the brains were "linking up" after they mediated together for 15 minutes...even when isolating one of them in a Faraday cage.

using which neuroimaging technique?

Originally posted by Nietzschean
So I was tryin to discuss Christianity with some people when I kept getting interrupted by someone who claims to be Christian but is not a fundamentalist nor moderate Christian.

I guess that is fine. But, it was him defending Christianity as a whole from his perspective that religion is meant to evolve adapt and borrow so he had no problem accepting that Christian stories were taken from other various sources and cultures: Sumerians, Canaanites, Babylonians.

I tried to explain that his view of Christianity is not really shared by the majority of Christians whether moderate or fundamentalist b/c the core of the Christian belief is faith in the truth of the bible a few being: Moses was real and God spoke to him, Yeshua was real and the Son of God, God of the bible is real.

I asked, how could he defend Christianity from his perspective if he doesnt belief or have faith that they are literal truths and it's okay if they are not real or if they are stolen stories from myths.

He calls himself Christian but has no firm stance which led me to question if he had ulterior motives in the discussion. b/c every time I asked what he does believe in the bible he wouldnt say, if I tried to talk about a portion of the bible or a story he would simply claim he never claimed any validity to it and wanted me to prove the story true or false.

I could only offer historical accounts of certain events that dont match up with biblical events or were in question by theologians or scholars as being unlikely and outright false, or the stance where extraordinary claims require extraordinary prove. he would retort with show me the evidence.

Now my question is can one be a Christian without having a set believe of what it is to be a christian, If God does not actually have to exist as stated in the version of the bible is one still christian?

To me he sounded more like a spiritualist then an actual christian since it didnt matter to him if the biblical god is real and he was aware that the aspects of El and Yahweh were of Canaanite origin.

He simply said he was undecided as to which version of god to worship but, called, himself Christian.

the guy was driving me insane and would say I was committing ad hominid b/c of his spiritual/religious stance which I was not but simply trying to explain his argument for christianity cannot fit for the majority christian views. hence his argument could not defend Christianity as is.

He later said He liked to debate but he seem to be a more of a troll then anything although well spoken.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Really?

So they figured out how the brains were "linking up" after they mediated together for 15 minutes...even when isolating one of them in a Faraday cage.

Originally posted by inimalist
using which neuroimaging technique?

nvm, almost certainly a statistical issue regarding "autocorrelations" in using EEG data

http://www.lfr.org/lfr/csl/library/CorrelationFinal.pdf

EDIT: btw, the authors who wrote that are not sceptics of psi

Originally posted by inimalist
using which neuroimaging technique?

Originally posted by inimalist
nvm, almost certainly a statistical issue regarding "autocorrelations" in using EEG data

http://www.lfr.org/lfr/csl/library/CorrelationFinal.pdf

EDIT: btw, the authors who wrote that are not sceptics of psi

I was wanting something other than "ZOMG! PSIONICS!" as the explanation. As I said...I would not be surprised if my version of God interacted with us in a completely naturalistic way. To me, that's more elegant and "acceptable" then other versions.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I was wanting something other than "ZOMG! PSIONICS!" as the explanation. As I said...I would not be surprised if my version of God interacted with us in a completely naturalistic way. To me, that's more elegant and "acceptable" then other versions.

sure

however, I stand by what I said about brains "linking", and I'm sure your familiar with my positions on psi research in general (re: finding that it is an error in the application of statistics is the most unsurprising thing ever)

Originally posted by inimalist
sure

however, I stand by what I said about brains "linking", and I'm sure your familiar with my positions on psi research in general (re: finding that it is an error in the application of statistics is the most unsurprising thing ever)

To be honest, finding shit that interacts in an super-naturalistic way (like psionics) would actually be devastating to my core theistic beliefs.

I really do not know how I would deal with that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
To be honest, finding shit that interacts in an super-naturalistic way (like psionics) would actually be devastating to my core theistic beliefs.

I really do not know how I would deal with that.

to be fair, it is, in theory, possible that it might exist through some materialistic manner

but then again, in theory, it is possible that the planets may orbit earth

it would be so absolutely inconsistent with everything we know and understand about the universe, it would be illogical, etc, but either thing, if we found evidence for it, wouldn't necessarily be proof of something "supernatural"

I do agree, if God exists it makes way more sense that it is a natural thing that we would eventually discover, and there are certainly mysteries in the universe.

Originally posted by inimalist
to be fair, it is, in theory, possible that it might exist through some materialistic manner

but then again, in theory, it is possible that the planets may orbit earth

it would be so absolutely inconsistent with everything we know and understand about the universe, it would be illogical, etc, but either thing, if we found evidence for it, wouldn't necessarily be proof of something "supernatural"

This is my angle, as well. My first inclination is always to the natural, never the supernatural.

Originally posted by inimalist
I do agree, if God exists it makes way more sense that it is a natural thing that we would eventually discover, and there are certainly mysteries in the universe.

Indeed. At the very least, we should expect a "sentient" life out there that could be considered "God" or "gods" by our perceptions. What will humanity be like in 1000 years?

Already, some of our technologies would make us appear as "gods" to your ancient ancestors. So it's not that far fetched.

Supernatural is almost a meaningless term. If we find something occurring in the universe regularly, that would mean it is natural. So if psi was discovered, it would just mean there were natural laws that are not yet understood.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Supernatural is almost a meaningless term. If we find something occurring in the universe regularly, that would mean it is natural. So if psi was discovered, it would just mean there were natural laws that are not yet understood.

Well, in philosophy (the context), supernatural is something that is above and beyond the ability of the natural sciences to every directly measure or test (for the most part).

This goes in the miracles threads, I suppose.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, in philosophy (the context), supernatural is something that is above and beyond the ability of the natural sciences to every directly measure or test (for the most part).

This goes in the miracles threads, I suppose.

Originally posted by King Kandy
If its above the ability of the sciences to test, then how would psychologists ever get positive results in an experiment to begin with?

Indirect measures.

"We can see the psionics' effects but we don't know exactly how it works much less replicate it."

Originally posted by dadudemon
I've become burned out on religion since becoming an "adult." I still can't stop believing in God...but I don't have much faith in people. 🙁

lol. That's a shame, because people created God.

😉

Originally posted by dadudemon
Indirect measures.

"We can see the psionics' effects but we don't know exactly how it works much less replicate it."

Originally posted by King Kandy
But that is true for all unknown phenomena when they are first discovered. It doesn't mean they are anything beyond scientific method.

That's exactly what my point was.

Well, sort of.

My point was more, "There shouldn't be anything supernatural: it's all natural."