no
It's just an issue of effort, not foundation. For example,
Neph, Exhibit A.
Being better in the Force is superior to being better in skill.
Neph, Exhibit B.
Really? Windu was completely unable to find Sidious' shatterpoint when they dueled up unil Skywalker walked in. Other than his trust in Anakin he couldn't find an exploitable weakness.
Neph, Exhibit C.
I don't recall this. In fact, as I recall Luke produced an illusion of himself realistic to fool Caedus while talking to him and pinning him his chair with the Force (Luke wasn't even in the room). And then fooled him again with an entire fleet of illusionary ships.
^ Each of these things are rather easily dealt with.
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[*]While this principle is espoused by Bane/Kas'im, it is not always the case: consider the 55-gallon drum of whoopass that Dooku dropped on poor Anakin on Geonosis, despite the latter's vastly superior strength in the Force.
[*]The text actually indicates that Palpatine's trust in Anakin was "the largest" of the fractures/shatterpoints visible to Windu, not the only.
[*]This occured in The Dark Nest Trilogy, in which Caedus used illusions to manipulate Luke into thinking the wounded Mara died; Caedus indicated that one's present mental state is what impacts one's vulnerability to illusions {hence why Luke was able to dupe the deranged Caedus}.
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It's just meh. I guess I'm kinda bored with it?
{And by it, I mean debating in general, not you.}
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir^ Each of these things are rather easily dealt with.
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[*]While this principle is espoused by Bane/Kas'im, it is not always the case: consider the 55-gallon drum of whoopass that Dooku dropped on poor Anakin on Geonosis, despite the latter's vastly superior strength in the Force.
You believe Anakin was stronger than Dooku in AOTC? Lol, no. Anakin has extraordinary potential but he's a child in AOTC. He's nowhere near Dookus level of mastery in the Force and he isn't close to utilising his potential.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
[*]The text actually indicates that Palpatine's trust in Anakin was "the largest" of the fractures/shatterpoints visible to Windu, not the only.
Correct, I had forgotten that. But the fact is that it took Mace the entire duel to capitalise on a shatterpoint (to our knowldge). I doubt Caedus will last that long. And again, no Anakin present to grant him victory.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
[*]This occured in The Dark Nest Trilogy, in which Caedus used illusions to manipulate Luke into thinking the wounded Mara died; Caedus indicated that one's present mental state is what impacts one's vulnerability to illusions {hence why Luke was able to dupe the deranged Caedus}.
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Luke at the time was relatively unskilled in illusions if thats the case, almost killing himself with the strain of a small one. Later he proves himself far his superior in that regard, and that Caedus isn't exactly as skilled as you make him out to be.
Plus Caedus at his strongest point was deranged, so thats a self-defeating argument.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
It's just meh. I guess I'm kinda bored with it?{And by it, I mean debating in general, not you.}
Hey man, I'm cool with you disagreeing but don't start a fight you don't wanna see through.
Neph
You believe Anakin was stronger than Dooku in AOTC? Lol, no.
Actually, he was; midichlorian counts don't raise with age. Anakin was stronger than Dooku or Palpatine or Yoda in the Force from birth.
Kas'im, Path of Destruction
"As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation. However, the equation is not so simple. Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force."
There is a fundamental difference between Force mastery and Force strength. The former is a product of skill, which you disregarded, the latter is a latent power.
Neph
I doubt Caedus will last that long.
k.
Neph
Luke at the time was relatively unskilled in illusions if thats the case, almost killing himself with the strain of a small one.
Actually, by this time, Luke had concealed an entire planet in an illusion courtesy of the Fallanassi technique. If you're referring to his replication of the Jade Shadow, it was more of an issue that the sudden surge of power was channeling more energy than his body was condirioned to endure.
Neph
Later he proves himself far his superior in that regard,
MeCaedusJacen indicated that one's present mental state is what impacts one's vulnerability to illusions {hence why Luke was able to dupe the deranged Caedus}.
👆
Neph
and that Caedus isn't exactly as skilled as you make him out to be.
haermm
How so?
All I said is that he was capable of fooling Luke with illusions {which he did}.
Neph
Plus Caedus at his strongest point was deranged, so thats a self-defeating argument.
haermm
How so?
This is about Palpatine versus Caedus, not Luke versus Caedus. The argument would be self-defeating if it involved Palpatine trying to manipulate Caedus via illusion.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Actually, he was; midichlorian counts don't raise with age. Anakin was stronger than Dooku or Palpatine or Yoda in the Force from birth.
Again I reach for my Applejack picture. I trust you know the difference between potential Force Strength and actualised Force strength. Anakin has never been stronger than the above individuals save for in moments of clarity. At other times he was unable to overpower Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Besides which we know that factors other than simply midichlorian count factor into a persons strength with the Force. Such as anger, Force mastery or moments of connection to the Force, as you yourself said: 'If Yoda's words in The Empire Strikes Back are to be believed {and according to Ush, they are and you dare not disagree}, then there are no limits to what a Force user can do-- except for those limits that he or she imposes upon themselves.'
Look at Bane. He was not always as strong as he was. There were times when he was pathetic in terms of ability and strength due to his lack of mastery of the Force and himself.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
There is a fundamental difference between Force mastery and Force strength. The former is a product of skill, which you disregarded, the latter is a latent power.
The key word is latent there Gideon. I susect that you're leading me in anothe rgame of fvcking semantics here so let me cut to the chase: Kas'im says that the Force is the key to victory. If you cannot use the Force as well as your opponent, despite your potential being greater, you are at a disadvantage. Potential/latent power does not equate to actualised power.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
k.
Yes k.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Actually, by this time, Luke had concealed an entire planet in an illusion courtesy of the Fallanassi technique. If you're referring to his replication of the Jade Shadow, it was more of an issue that the sudden surge of power was channeling more energy than his body was condirioned to endure.
😬
So he can conceal and entire planet but a small shuttle is suddenly 'more energy than his body was condirioned to endure'? Puh-lease.
Edit: Your above post is likely correct.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
👆
Good to see you've got your will to fight back.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
haermmHow so?
All I said is that he was capable of fooling Luke with illusions {which he did}.
Which I replied was not as impressive as you were implying. I mean, you were listing it as a point in his favor, were you not?
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
haermmHow so?
This is about Palpatine versus Caedus, not Luke versus Caedus. The argument would be self-defeating if it involved Palpatine trying to manipulate Caedus via illusion.
No, your argument defeats itself by pointing out that a person is easily fooled by illusions when deranged, as Caedus is.