Telepathy works but where is scientific evidence?

Kurzweil's boner is mainly for technological immortality, but your line of thought on telepathy is roughly parallel to a lot of his nonsense.

I get fed up with having to say "well yes, we can't say anything 100% for sure, because objective/subjective reality and absolute statements and blahblahblah..." We all know we can't make absolute objective statements about reality. Hooray, we're capable of abstract thought and thinking outside our own perceptions! Good for us. Now let's all just stfu about that and understand that there are some things that are so unlikely, and so thoroughly tested, that they can be functionally called false and impossible. Telepathy is one of those things. We don't need the "absolute" disclaimer, because too many people hide behind that to say "what if?" Telepathy as it is colloquially understood is not worth believing in, period.

This isn't necessarily aimed at you, dudemon, though it's been brought up in our discussions more than once. You as much as said it's not worth believing in, so we're mostly on the same page. It's just, we don't treat the laws of physics like subjective interpretations of reality. In life, in all of our practice, we treat it as fact. Some things are either so evident, or so completely lacking evidence, that it's more rational to treat them as facts, then rearrange our thinking if we're presented with new information. Because saying telepathy could be real, in the sense that it is "used" by people around the world, is about the same to me as saying Santa Claus could be real. We allow delusion by not taking a hard enough stance, which is why the "well, we can't know, but..." statements irk me.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There's nothing to get sucked into.

edit - Meh, deleted everything.

We can talk about it later.

let me try this approach:

what specific findings in neuroscience are you looking at that suggest that technological telepathy could be possible?

what type of evidence about the brain and its organization/function would suggest to you that technological telepathy is not possible?

So, in an fMRI design for an experiment, all data about images from the brain have to be transformed into what is called Talairach coordinates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Talairach#Talairach_coordinates

Now, I'm with you, this type of thing sucks, however, such a transformation is absolutely necessary, because without "some" type of general basis to start from, fMRI research would be nearly impossible, because of how divergent neuro-organization can be between two neurotypical subjects, even between twins.

The limitations of Talairach coordinates are well known to fMRI researchers, and are used essentially as a "but there is no better way" type deal. Can you give me specifics about how some type of machine is going to be adaptable, even just considering neurotypical populations (and not even those with flipped brains or extreme hemispheric lateralization/cross over), to all types of brains given how different they are? like, technically, I will take an answer that looks at neuro systems level explanations, which do have some overlap between subjects, whereas any invention responsible for technological telepathy would have to be at least at the single neuron level, if not at some ribonucleaic level, where individual differences would be far more pronounced.

Like, where does your argument go once I accept that in the future we will know more about brains? My point is that, given what we do know, it seems more likely we are going to find incredible individual differences and issues with input/output, and more knowledge about the brain will make such technology actually less probable, as we will see just how complex brains are. Keep in mind, early fMRI research had a tendency to simplify the brain down to "this area" and "that area", current neuroscience has largely dropped that approach because it did not allow for nearly enough complexity.

Originally posted by Digi
Kurzweil's boner is mainly for technological immortality, but your line of thought on telepathy is roughly parallel to a lot of his nonsense.

I get fed up with having to say "well yes, we can't say anything 100% for sure, because objective/subjective reality and absolute statements and blahblahblah..." We all know we can't make absolute objective statements about reality. Hooray, we're capable of abstract thought and thinking outside our own perceptions! Good for us. Now let's all just stfu about that and understand that there are some things that are so unlikely, and so thoroughly tested, that they can be functionally called false and impossible. Telepathy is one of those things. We don't need the "absolute" disclaimer, because too many people hide behind that to say "what if?" Telepathy as it is colloquially understood is not worth believing in, period.

This isn't necessarily aimed at you, dudemon, though it's been brought up in our discussions more than once. You as much as said it's not worth believing in, so we're mostly on the same page. It's just, we don't treat the laws of physics like subjective interpretations of reality. In life, in all of our practice, we treat it as fact. Some things are either so evident, or so completely lacking evidence, that it's more rational to treat them as facts, then rearrange our thinking if we're presented with new information. Because saying telepathy could be real, in the sense that it is "used" by people around the world, is about the same to me as saying Santa Claus could be real. We allow delusion by not taking a hard enough stance, which is why the "well, we can't know, but..." statements irk me.

You seem a bit...cranky about that. I know you said it isn't directly aimed at me, but, come on...I'm not really THAT much of a social idiot to know that you're not venting at me for saying, "well...we can't say "impossible" for sure".

I'm more than on the same page, btw. I just can't bring myself to say, "man...telepathy as it applies to psionics? It definitely and absolutely does not exist". And, yeah, I see it all the time in references to Parapsychology: they usually append a disclaimer or word their conclusions like "from what I've researched, x is not real" or "the evidence is fairly conclusive that x is not real". They avoid real absolutes because you can never be perfectly sure. I don't think that's outside the box, at all. That's just being pragmatic.

If something extremely unlikely happens, I am not utterly confounded. I just conclude, "Wow, that was extremely unlikely to the point of me not really thinking it possible."

And, yeah...we can boil down everything we think is "solid" to something anthropic or subjective. Even the entirety of physics. This is something I've recently been dealing with (it irritates me, like for you when people point out how absolute statements can't always be absolute). Everything I took as inexorable can be boiled down to silly logical constructs like axioms/truisms or some sort of subjective influence. It's like the entirety of all understanding is really just a giant heap of subjectivity with nothing being truly objective.

Edit - I google searched what you're talking about. I understand, now, why that particular line of reasoning frustrates you: it's originally a concept pulled from religious/anti-religious discussions. "God does not exist" is not a perfect truth because such a position would require a perfect knowledge which is pretty much impossible for current humans to do (we are waaaaaaay too finite to accomplish such a task). So you must say, “With the limited knowledge I have, I do not believe there is a God.” Argumentative theists love it when they can back an atheist into that corner. That's NOT my angle, at all. That's not where I was wanting to take the discussion. I just don't feel comfortable and it does get annoying when people make sweeping statements about things such as "telepathy is impossible". You definitely mean, "with the very limited knowledge we have about it, classical telepathy appears impossible."

The scientist says, "Our research shows a strong conclusion for x."

The layman says, "X is 100% true."

The mystic says, "X is a limited understanding because the "supernatural Y".

Originally posted by inimalist
let me try this approach:

what specific findings in neuroscience are you looking at that suggest that technological telepathy could be possible?

what type of evidence about the brain and its organization/function would suggest to you that technological telepathy is not possible?

So, in an fMRI design for an experiment, all data about images from the brain have to be transformed into what is called Talairach coordinates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Talairach#Talairach_coordinates

Now, I'm with you, this type of thing sucks, however, such a transformation is absolutely necessary, because without "some" type of general basis to start from, fMRI research would be nearly impossible, because of how divergent neuro-organization can be between two neurotypical subjects, even between twins.

The limitations of Talairach coordinates are well known to fMRI researchers, and are used essentially as a "but there is no better way" type deal. Can you give me specifics about how some type of machine is going to be adaptable, even just considering neurotypical populations (and not even those with flipped brains or extreme hemispheric lateralization/cross over), to all types of brains given how different they are? like, technically, I will take an answer that looks at neuro systems level explanations, which do have some overlap between subjects, whereas any invention responsible for technological telepathy would have to be at least at the single neuron level, if not at some ribonucleaic level, where individual differences would be far more pronounced.

Like, where does your argument go once I accept that in the future we will know more about brains? My point is that, given what we do know, it seems more likely we are going to find incredible individual differences and issues with input/output, and more knowledge about the brain will make such technology actually less probable, as we will see just how complex brains are. Keep in mind, early fMRI research had a tendency to simplify the brain down to "this area" and "that area", current neuroscience has largely dropped that approach because it did not allow for nearly enough complexity.

It would most likely have to be at the nano-scale.

My big long write up (I seriously typed up a shit ton) basically talked about exactly what you're asking. We'd not only have to interface at the individual neuronic level, we'd have to predicatively interact with synaptic groupings (as you probably know, one memory isn't one neuron...it's most likely a collection each holding a little piece of the bigger picture...depending on what type of memories we are talking about) to fully capture on information/memories are processed, stored, and retrieved. Before we get there, we'd have to have a near perfect (we could cut corners with predictive analysis and other types of corner cutting techniques) understanding of the chemical processes taking place. And, yes, understanding the chemicals would require understanding all of the organelles and their roles. Not just generally, but specifically.

But, yes, I talked about a "clean" machine that basically acts like a stem-cell and grows and develops to the person's neurological "fingerprint". Does that make sense? They think this happens with a matrix of nanobots wirelessly communicating with each other as well as an external processing machine.

Where does the argument go if you accept we will be able to directly interface our brains with machines and then to each other? I believe the answer is simple: we are there, now. But it's quite rudimentary and "ugly". We have quite the distance to go before we can emulate full-fledged telepathy. However, some say that we are already there with the "machines controlled with our minds". I can see why they say that but, to me, that's just playing word games. I'm not interested in word games: I want Uatu levels of telepathy. lol

Originally posted by dadudemon
It would most likely have to be at the nano-scale.

My big long write up (I seriously typed up a shit ton) basically talked about exactly what you're asking. We'd not only have to interface at the individual neuronic level, we'd have to predicatively interact with synaptic groupings (as you probably know, one memory isn't one neuron...it's most likely a collection each holding a little piece of the bigger picture...depending on what type of memories we are talking about) to fully capture on information/memories are processed, stored, and retrieved. Before we get there, we'd have to have a near perfect (we could cut corners with predictive analysis and other types of corner cutting techniques) understanding of the chemical processes taking place. And, yes, understanding the chemicals would require understanding all of the organelles and their roles. Not just generally, but specifically.

But, yes, I talked about a "clean" machine that basically acts like a stem-cell and grows and develops to the person's neurological "fingerprint". Does that make sense? They think this happens with a matrix of nanobots wirelessly communicating with each other as well as an external processing machine.

Where does the argument go if you accept we will be able to directly interface our brains with machines and then to each other? I believe the answer is simple: we are there, now. But it's quite rudimentary and "ugly". We have quite the distance to go before we can emulate full-fledged telepathy. However, some say that we are already there with the "machines controlled with our minds". I can see why they say that but, to me, that's just playing word games. I'm not interested in word games: I want Uatu levels of telepathy. lol

GAWD

you look at this like such an engineer!!!! 😠

well, like, sure, I can't say nano-tech couldn't someday, in futureland, create telepathy through technology. That idea is entirely non-falsifiable though /shrug

Originally posted by inimalist
GAWD

you look at this like such an engineer!!!! 😠

well, like, sure, I can't say nano-tech couldn't someday, in futureland, create telepathy through technology. That idea is entirely non-falsifiable though /shrug

In that futureland, we can have much better sex, without touching privates. 😐

You've gotta look at this future telepathy place with more optimism.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I want Uatu levels of telepathy. lol

Please resend this to other people , many people together can solve this tragedy, please suport this letter of Vinko Rajic,
help to find out what is this about:
I am maybe the only really telepathic person in the world. You should not think that I could be Schizophrenic.

STOP PSYCHO TERROR ON ME , PSYCHOPATS ARE PSYCHO KILLING ME, I AM TOTALY MAD OF PSYCHO TORTURE.

Can you please resend this email to other scientists, please save me of this terror.
Can you please give me advice , what I can do against gang that torture me for last 10 Years.
They cost me all important things in my life for last 10 years.
I can not pay back money to CSN, I am this winter going to finish on the street.
I have to get polisen to start arresting them.
Academic degree, job, marriage, sex, pleasure, homeland... and all other things , I have nothing and they talk to me using telepathy:
- "you lost everything and I get paid, they paid me every day and you losing your life time"
- "you future wife is fu__ing someone else and you are mas__rbating and living single"

HEHEH, you suck, I get big money for it, ...

I can exchange voice, video, smell, people can move small move muscles on my body from distance up to few kilometer and much more
and all messages from me are transmitted to big number of people so I am a Mental Radio.
One of the most advanced things I can do is to talk brain to brain and it is very fascinating,
works 100% all the time and it is really talk direct to brain.

I never found any document about any other existing person in human history like myself, but
science never did serious research on me and I actually did not exist in world of science.
I could easy give evidence for telepathy.Maybe some of Neurologist or scientist
could help me or is maybe interesting to make research on my phenomena.

What I find most fascinating my telepathy is nearly identical what Schizophrenics experiences.
They can get voice, videos and smell, I can transmit voice , video and smell using telepathy.
People can connect my brain in such a way that they are like running my thinking, it is like you connect
some ones head and when you think he fill it like he is thinking, difficult to explain.
When someone connect me he can think own thoughts inside my brain and that is exact what Schizophrenics are
talking about "delusional thinking".
My telepathy manifest itself exact like "Schneider's first-rank symptoms".
Very fascinating but some people found some very fuj person to run
thoughts in my head and that's really nightmare. That person has very good knowledge in psycho terror , probably he learn how to
psycho break people in war camps in Bosnia.

Person they finance is suported by some psyckopat Church or Swedish and Norwegian media.
I think sh-it pervert is receiving information how to find me of that sh-it pervert new Church.
I do not know what kind of network they use to collect money and how they find me.
I was in Tibet and Africa and in remote part of Tibet and Africa they could't find me but Europa and Australia they find me
and they send sh-it pervert to place where I am to terroroze me.

What I want to tell is that I think that is very big mistake not to take me seriously and make research with me and stop using me
for creating some idiot show in which my life is just getting vested and some idiots find employment.
I think that some of "Schizophrenics" are just receiving from some person from very long distance.

They are few important differences, moving small muscles on my body and sex.
People can tell me that they are going to move some small muscle on my body and really move it.
One of most fascinating things is pen-is erection. It is possible to get my penis erected from distance any time ,
it means I can have sex forever and very intensive , something like Tantra.

I am working on to get asylum for USA and some other states, maybe they are going to stop this mad terror on me.
I have very bad problem in Sweden, bad that Swedish do not understand how miserable my life is
or they understand but not care.
Swedish polisen just ignore this, they could easy stop this, they could call my ex. Lisa Herne from Halmstad
and she could give them informations on peoples working on this.
I think Swedish police think this is show and I am psycho torrturized for 10 Years or I do not understand what
is wrong with police department in Sweden.

Problem is that for the last 10 Years they paid some very offul person to terrorize me from distance
using telepathy. Problem is that that person found mad fun , something like guards in concentration camps.
People they employ is probably are homosexual, shit, anal perverts with very good knoalage in psycko terror.
Typically Bosnians contrecations cam guard, really nigtmare there.

Terror:
1. I am Software developer and i have to contrecate on my work but he is spending all day long talking to me
15-17 hours a day and he is using tactics of psycho terror, usually used on war prisoners in concentration camps
in Bosnia. He wake me up any time in the night just to psycho break me.

2. Diarrhea problem. He can move muscles in my stomach and he do it all the time, he is in distance of few kilometer day and
night and terrorizing my stomach. He or group of shit perverts is working
day and night around me on it.
At the end my stomach is really not working and I have eating problems and
can get diarrea. I am getting to look similar to war prisoner.
He like to watch me go to the toilet and he talk to me all the time when I sitt in the
toilet, those people are toatal dirty shit perverts.
And than he is joking , "hehe you are thin, you have no chance in fighting me."
"You just try to atack me I am efficient going to hit you in the head and send into coma".
Problem is that he keep distance of few kilometer and I have no chance to find out who he/she is.

3. Stalking and no privacy. He is stalking on me day and night , in shower, toilet, when doing my
intimacy things and more. He has no respect for privacy. Dirty perverts.

Right what I know :
- someone can communicate with me using telepathy
- some percent of people can receive telepathic messages of me
- some people started money collecting and they collected big money
- money has been collected in Sweden, Norway and few other places
- it should be illegal money transfer in size of 250 000 - 600 000 Euro , also illegal paiments to shit perverts
( what is really interesting they do not care about "illegal money transfer", "illegal paiments to terrorize someone",
"illegal cash transfers",
they do not care that I am going to call police and tell them this . )

What kind of people is transfering hunderts of tousend Euro and using it to terrorize someone and just do
not care for police and Justice.

Originally posted by neuro
What I find most fascinating my telepathy is nearly identical what Schizophrenics experiences.

"fascinating"... yes....

Originally posted by neuro
What I want to tell is that I think that is very big mistake not to take me seriously and make research with me and stop using me
for creating some idiot show in which my life is just getting vested and some idiots find employment.

I'm sure we could come up with some simple tests...

I'm writing a word on a piece of paper and will keep it near my desk. what is the word?

Originally posted by inimalist
"fascinating"... yes....

I'm sure we could come up with some simple tests...

I'm writing a word on a piece of paper and will keep it near my desk. what is the word?

Originally posted by neuro
telepathy works up to few kilometer 100% correct, you should read message above

so, you are saying you could tell me the word I have written if you were within a kilometer?

Originally posted by neuro
telepathy works up to few kilometer 100% correct

Originally posted by inimalist
so, you are saying you could tell me the word I have written if you were within a kilometer?

Isn't what you're talking about remote viewing rather than telepahty?

Or are you saying he can read your mind to know rather than viewing the word?

Is remote viewing considered a subset of telepathy?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Isn't what you're talking about remote viewing rather than telepahty?

Or are you saying he can read your mind to know rather than viewing the word?

Is remote viewing considered a subset of telepathy?

I'd gladly substitute that test for another

Originally posted by Mindship
What happens after that? Does it get weaker with distance?

LMAO...but really distance has nothing to do with it...psychiatrists are known (in the medical field) to be some sort of a psychics.
Some say it's faster than the speed of light

Originally posted by alltoomany
LMAO...but really distance has nothing to do with it...psychiatrists are known (in the medical field) to be some sort of a psychics.
Some say it's faster than the speed of light

Maybe we could get technologically based telepathy by using eugenics and clonning at some point.

Question: Would it be possible to distinguish between a true telepath and someone who reads the future by testing?

Originally posted by Bentley
Question: Would it be possible to distinguish between a true telepath and someone who reads the future by testing?

And what would reading the future by "testing" mean?

Seems to me you may be comparing what we think true telepathy ("mind-reading"😉 is (based largely on fictional notions), and tech-based precognition ("seeing the future" via laws of physics).

Not that I care about this thread in the slightest, but shouldn't the response be "if telepathy works, where is the scientific evidence?" not "telepathy works, there's just no scientific evidence for it"?

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Not that I care about this thread in the slightest, but

💃