Originally posted by SquallX
No way in hell is he beating Diana. This is the same Woman that's an even better fighter than Batman.With out PIS/CIS Kal gives him a good and hard fight but loses in the end.
Wow so Diana is now better than Batman? Ok.
I see so you guys are trying to goad me as well? Got it. 👆
Originally posted by Deadline
Wow so Diana is now better than Batman? Ok.
I wouldn't say that much, but she is very good and, like Batman, a real martial arts connoisseur, who spars with him, Lady Shiva, Black Canary, etc..
Both Batman and Black Canary like to gush about how she's such a skillful fighter unlike the other top tiers.
Originally posted by Deadline
Wow so Diana is now better than Batman? Ok.I see so you guys are trying to goad me as well? Got it. 👆
You're kidding right? The only reason Batman is hot stuff most of the time is because of PIS/CIS.
There's not a form of h2h combat that Diana doesn't know, there's not a weapon form that Diana doesn't know.
Even more, both her and Superman gained an additional 1000 yrs of war experience in Asgard when the Asgardians asked for there help.
Characters like Batman, Captain America, Punisher are the epitome of Pis/cis, remove that and there close to nothing.
A class 100 fighter with light speed combat reflexes consciously holding back while engaging street level martial arts in sparing matches says virtually nothing about her skill. She can limit her self to operating at peak human levels, but it doesn't change what her actually stats are. Anything that happened to her in one of those spars only happened because she allowed it to, and not because "zomg she is so skilled!" but because she is capable of moving and perceiving the world at the speed of light. Wonder Woman is nowhere near as skilled as Batman, it's not really a debate. Batman is so skilled that he can compete competitively WAAAAAAAAAAAY above his weight class, the same is not true for Wonder Woman. Just think about the stuff Batman does, if Diana was as skilled as Batman she would be doing the herald equivalent and preforming ridiculous feats way above her power level... which is pretty difficult to even imagine.
Wonder Woman is a skilled fighter, but Thor or Hercules skilled, not Batman or Captain America skilled. That is a completely different league and she isn't even on the scout's radars for the draft.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
A class 100 fighter with light speed combat reflexes consciously holding back while engaging street level martial arts in sparing matches says virtually nothing about her skill. She can limit her self to operating at peak human levels, but it doesn't change what her actually stats are. Anything that happened to her in one of those spars only happened because she allowed it to, and not because "zomg she is so skilled!" but because she is capable of moving and perceiving the world at the speed of light. Wonder Woman is [b]nowhere near as skilled as Batman, it's not really a debate. Batman is so skilled that he can compete competitively WAAAAAAAAAAAY above his weight class, the same is not true for Wonder Woman. Just think about the stuff Batman does, if Diana was as skilled as Batman she would be doing the herald equivalent and preforming ridiculous feats way above her power level... which is pretty difficult to even imagine.Wonder Woman is a skilled fighter, but Thor or Hercules skilled, not Batman or Captain America skilled. That is a completely different league and she isn't even on the scout's radars for the draft. [/B]
While any time Barman perform a skill against a character that's well beyond his stats is proof of PIS/CIS.
Diana's experience in armed/unharmed combat far surpasses Batman's skill.
Characters like Diana hardly uses there martial arts because mostly of the characters they go up against.
Here an example: An in old WW comic, Diana was having trouble beating Deathstroke. That whole comic had nothing to do with Diana not been skilled enough to beat him, but more to do with PIS/CIS.
Operating above and beyond the limitations of their attributes is a staple for determining top tier martial artists. If Wonder Woman was anywhere near Batman's skilled she would have Batman-esq feats only on a much higher scale relative to her own power level. She would be able to effortlessly demolish any herald character around her level and would routinely preform absurd feats that defy explanation. The reason she hardly uses her martial arts because she is a class 100 bruiser who 9 times out 10 decides to slug it out with her enemies, just like Thor. Sure, she is a skilled fighter, but not skilled enough to be mentioned in the same breath as Batman. Look at it this way, if Batman had Wonder Woman's attributes, he would destroy Superman 10/10 in a fight so lop sided anyone who bought tickets would ask for their money back. The fact that Wonder Woman can't do that should clue you in to the fact that relative the big dogs, she isn't really that skilled. These are comic books experience != skill.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Operating above and beyond the limitations of their attributes is a staple for determining top tier martial artists. If Wonder Woman was anywhere near Batman's skilled she would have Batman-esq feats only on a much higher scale relative to her own power level. She would be able to effortlessly demolish any herald character around her level and would routinely preform absurd feats that defy explanation. The reason she hardly uses her martial arts because she is a class 100 bruiser who 9 times out 10 decides to slug it out with her enemies, just like Thor. Sure, she is a skilled fighter, but not skilled enough to be mentioned in the same breath as Batman. Look at it this way, if Batman had Wonder Woman's attributes, he would destroy Superman 10/10 in a fight so lop sided anyone who bought tickets would ask for their money back. The fact that Wonder Woman can't do that should clue you in to the fact that relative the big dogs, she isn't really that skilled. These are comic books experience != skill.
agreed. it's ironic that a good arguement could be made that by "virtue"
of their massively overpowered stats, their actual (not sparring) combat
ma skills & centuries of training likely experience some level of atrophy;
after all, why apply technique & skill to a actual fight (again, not
sparring) when thor can smash them with his hammer or WW can run
at them at the speed of light & smash them with crude haymakers?
having knowledge of sophisticated fighting techniques & skills is one thing...the application of those skills is another. batman doesn't just have knowledge of these skills, he actually applies them to actual combat situations 9/10. the rest of the class 100+ crew are so accustomed to simply overpowering their opponents in relatively simplistics ways that they don't have anywhere near batman's amount of feats demonstrating the application of ma skills/technique outside of sparring & suggestion based on bios; with their super powers turned off, they would be completely overwhelmed by batman.
WW or superman looking at batman & saying "I can do that but i don't
wanna!" comes off like the snotty jealousy of a child who has to have the biggest lollipop.
A class 100 fighter with light speed combat reflexes consciously holding back while engaging street level martial arts in sparing matches says virtually nothing about her skill.
If someone isn't using those reflexes or strength at all then they hardly matter to the fight. Sure, the option is there, but unused options don't affect the skill in use of the options that are used.
Those martial artists view it fully as a contest of skill and Wonder Woman as an incredibly skilled fighter, and they wouldn't be wrong on judging whether or not that's the case.
Originally posted by Q99
If someone isn't using those reflexes or strength at all then they hardly matter to the fight. Sure, the option is there, but unused options don't affect the skill in use of the options that are used.
The stats aren't turned off or disabled, she is just consciously limiting how much of each she uses. She isn't peak human, her holding back doesn't change the fact that she is a high herald that perceives the world at the speed of light and can move to match it. Nothing in a sparing match with WW is a legitimate account of her skill because her attributes are damned off, she is just making the choice not to go all out. It is the equivalent of me walking around in super slow mo, it doesn't change how fast or strong she really is and relative to her perception everything around her would be still be happening in super slow motion. If she was in a peak human body the spars would be something, but she isn't, she is a high herald fooling around, and nothing in those spars can happen unless she allows them too.
Originally posted by SquallX
You're kidding right? The only reason Batman is hot stuff most of the time is because of PIS/CIS.There's not a form of h2h combat that Diana doesn't know, there's not a weapon form that Diana doesn't know.
Even more, both her and Superman gained an additional 1000 yrs of war experience in Asgard when the Asgardians asked for there help.
Characters like Batman, Captain America, Punisher are the epitome of Pis/cis, remove that and there close to nothing.
Great nothing in that post.
Pun beats WW and kicks Clarks butt.
Originally posted by Q99
I wouldn't say that much, but she is very good and, like Batman, a real martial arts connoisseur, who spars with him, Lady Shiva, Black Canary, etc..Both Batman and Black Canary like to gush about how she's such a skillful fighter unlike the other top tiers.
Diana probably is as good as Bruce is, but powers are turned off here.
Versus punisher she's fighting someone in the same ballpark skillwise, who has a good 75 to 100 pounds of muscle on her and greater reach.
She might wear him down a bit, but no way does she take him out.
Originally posted by Deadline
Really? Proof?
I said "probably." as someone else pointed out, she has over 1000 years or so of combat experience, and spars with canary and shiva.
That puts her in the "probably" bucket, and "in the same ballpark" as punisher, daredevil, wolverine, cap, batman, etc.
I doubt she's on the level of shang chi, Iron fist, Taskmaster, or Elektra- who have crazy chi powers and predictive combat skills as a result of insane martial arts expertise.
Bruce might have an advantage, but not really one I'd consider significant.
while depowered, didn't she school that goddess? was it the goddess diana? frickin can't remember. she has shown her skill while depowered though, on more than one occasion. i could see her getting some wins against him but i'd say he takes the majority.
i'd take slade as the end of the line for him though.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
I doubt she's on the level of shang chi, Iron fist, Taskmaster, or Elektra- who have crazy chi powers and predictive combat skills as a result of insane martial arts expertise.
She was sparring while she was blind, though. Detecting air currents.
That's crazy martial arts stuff in line with Cass and DD.