Revan runs the Sith Gauntlet.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is a ridiculous analogy, considering Superman's powers are inherited, not simply knowledge of a mystical power like Force knowledge happens to be.

It is not so bad. Supermans powers are simply something you have or you don't. You can't replicate them through study.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Right, but Traya also [b]teaches Nihilus how to perfect this ability which he appears to have a natural affinity for. She does this after studying the Sith hermetica left on Malachor V and experiencing the teachings of the true Sith for herself.

So clearly the ability can be honed and learned in some respect by knowledge of certain parts of the Force. Revan had access to such knowledge through his time on Malachor V and his mind contact with the Sith Emperor (Actually, that last one is totally difficult to support, but I'm arguing it just for the sake of arguing, see above where I asserted it blindly).

You fail.[/b]

She teaches him to enhance what is already there. You can still not 'learn' it. Theres nothing suggesting Revan was capable of using the ability. Simply because he was on Malachor does not give it to him.

As for the Emperor, he used a giant ritual and hundreds of Sith. I'm not convinced it was the same ability, especially since the Exile claims that his nature was fundamentally different from Nihilus', and since we only learn about him using it through a secondary source who admits she doesn't even know if its true.

No. No, you have failed! :blastslightning:

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, only Nihilus is directly affected by this, becoming a wound because of the event at Malachor V. Traya is attracted to the place because of its "echoes", but ultimately it is the Sith teachings she finds there which cause her to fall, both to the Dark Side and into the practice of teaching this new power to the newer Sith order.

Yes, I see your point. I was talking about the Exile and Nihilus. Plum forgot about Kreia. My boop.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I don't quite follow you here. The Exile was not a wound until immediately after Malachor V, but Revan didn't send her anywhere at that point. She simply fled from war and left known space.

He didn't? I thought he did send her back, as an example to the Council.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It is not so bad. Supermans powers are simply something you have or you don't. You can't replicate them through study.

But the point is the analogy is incorrect; the average person cannot replicate Superman because his powers are entirely alien to the human condition, whereas a Force user can study and use Force powers of another by virtue of being a Force user. That doesn't mean they use it equally well (because that's an argument of proficiency) but it is clear that Force powers are learn-able to those who can touch the Force.

She teaches him to enhance what is already there. You can still not 'learn' it. Theres nothing suggesting Revan was capable of using the ability. Simply because he was on Malachor does not give it to him.

You're forgetting something very, very important here:

Traya, Nihilus, and the Sith assassins of their empire all used this power to one degree or another, and they all acquired it through exposure to Malachor V's presence and teachings.

So let's take two-and-two:

1. Traya learned this ability on Malachor V. The KotOR sourcebook makes this clear as well, bringing up the fact that the Sith assassins which populated the planet's library did not attack her but instead brought her a Sith hermetica to study the technique. It describes the technique in some detail and furthermore points out that these same assassins accepted her as their leader because she was Revan's old master.

2. Traya says, in one of her monologues, that Revan taught his Sith assassins this same power of leeching Force powers from others, passively and actively.

3. Revan was furthermore aware of Malachor V's teachings and potentials. Traya relates that Revan did once visit the planet's surface, and the existence of his shadow army there after the war lends credit to this. Additionally, he used the echoes of the planet caused by its fell teachings and the mass death of the Battle of Malachor V specifically to turn or twist Jedi in its wake. The fact that the Exile, his lover at the time, was so affected makes you wonder.

Conclusion: Revan had access to these teachings. Since he founded a sect of Sith assassins who used it both passively and actively, it's logical to assume he's capable enough to use it, or at least defend himself from it.

As for the Emperor, he used a giant ritual and hundreds of Sith. I'm not convinced it was the same ability, especially since the Exile claims that his nature was fundamentally different from Nihilus', and since we only learn about him using it through a secondary source who admits she doesn't even know if its true.

Nihilus had no personality, and his hunger eclipsed who he was. Fundamentally, he is different from the Sith Emperor who has a distinct personality and an agenda besides just eating the ever living hell out of the Force. The SE also used the technique on a personal level to absorb his father, remember. He's not all rituals now.

He didn't? I thought he did send her back, as an example to the Council.

No, she opted to come back herself. They mentioned it in the council scene dialogue.

Don't forget that Malak could use what appears to be drain as well.

Here are minor hints:

1. Revan's force sense abilities are so incredible that he can sense the presence of a Force user accross the Galaxy whom he wants to locate.

2. Revan has incredible tolerance. He can absorb incredibly strong bursts of Force Lightning (deadly enough to incinerate even powerful Jedi and Sith) with bare hands and redirect them back to its main source.

3. Revan is the most powerful Jedi of KOTOR era.

4. Lord Scourge was in awe by Revan's command of the Force, whil he himself had brilliant potential. Two figures stood apart among all from in the Galaxy in the mind of Lord Scourge. Revan and Sith Emperor. Both had such unique command of the Force and understood it in ways that no other ever had before them.

I will give more later on.

@ Nephthys

Revan and Bastilla were enough to take on Sith Triumvirate on their own. Do the math.

Also, another hint for you:

"Led by a woman named Kreia, the rogue Jedi turned to the dark side teachings uncovered by Malak and Revan. Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before."

Kriea studied what Revan had already known.

Continued...

Revan had no issues moving heavy objects with the Force. He never struggled in such situations.

And finally;

Spoiler:
And Revan could feed on others to replenish himself. He does this to survive in the stasis. And he engages the Sith Emperor in a very long war of WILLS. His intervention manages to delay the invasion of the Republic.

Regarding the Sith Emperor;

He is so damn powerful that one wonders if even Darth Sidious can stand up to him in single combat. It is clear that Master Yoda cannot.

The Sith Emperor has surpassed the likes of Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun by an enormous margin.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But the point is the analogy is incorrect; the average person cannot replicate Superman because his powers are entirely alien to the human condition, whereas a Force user can study and use Force powers of another by virtue of being a Force user. That doesn't mean they use it equally well (because that's an argument of proficiency) but it is clear that Force powers are learn-able to those who can touch the Force.

Its an analogy. Of course it isn't goint to be a perfect fit. 🙄 And the technique is alien to the human condition. A person should not live outside of the Force. But who the **** cares, its just an analogy.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're forgetting something very, very important here:

Traya, Nihilus, and the Sith assassins of their empire all used this power to one degree or another, and they all acquired it through exposure to Malachor V's presence and teachings.

Sion was also on malachor and he didn't learn it. Just because Revan was on Malachor does not mean he knew the technique. Thats complete bullshit.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So let's take two-and-two:

1. Traya learned this ability on Malachor V. The KotOR sourcebook makes this clear as well, bringing up the fact that the Sith assassins which populated the planet's library did not attack her but instead brought her a Sith hermetica to study the technique. It describes the technique in some detail and furthermore points out that these same assassins accepted her as their leader [b]because she was Revan's old master.[/b]

So?

Also, could you post this source?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. Traya says, in one of her monologues, that Revan taught his Sith assassins this same power of leeching Force powers from others, passively and actively.

Again, could you post this? I don't believe I've ever seen her say this. He corrupted many jedi and used the echoes of war and devestation to do so, but I've never seen it boldly proclaimed that he taught them Nihilus' technique.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
3. Revan was furthermore aware of Malachor V's teachings and potentials. Traya relates that Revan did once visit the planet's surface, and the existence of his shadow army there after the war lends credit to this. Additionally, he used the echoes of the planet caused by its fell teachings and the mass death of the Battle of Malachor V specifically to turn or twist Jedi in its wake. The fact that the Exile, his lover at the time, was so affected makes you wonder.

Was it his shadow army? I though they served the Triumvirate. again, simply because he corrupted many Jedi does not automatically give him the ability. Even if he drove them to the technique on purpose it would not give him the technique. Simply knowing about it and how it works means jack shit. The Council knew alot about and a fat lot it did them. You need to be taught it instinctively. Not through reading the libraries on Malachor.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Conclusion: Revan had access to these teachings. Since he founded a sect of Sith assassins who used it both passively and actively, it's logical to assume he's capable enough to use it, or at least defend himself from it.

Despite there being no defence? And merely founding something doesn't mean you can do everything they can. Kaan founded an assassin academy. Does that mean he can automatically turn himself invisible? Fight like a ninja? No.

Besides, Revan doesn't display any of the side affects of the technique. Is Revan so awesome that he can not only channel the Light and Dark sides of the Force at the same time but he can also withstand all forms of corruption?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nihilus had no personality, and his hunger eclipsed who he was. Fundamentally, he is different from the Sith Emperor who has a distinct personality and an agenda besides just eating the ever living hell out of the Force. The SE also used the technique on a personal level to absorb his father, remember. He's not all rituals now.

I don't remember because books come out like a week late in England.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, she opted to come back herself. They mentioned it in the council scene dialogue.

Fair enough. I'm still sure I remember it mentioned that he sent her back, or allowed her to return, but I can't be asked to look it up.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here are minor hints:

1. Revan's force sense abilities are so incredible that he can sense the presence of a Force user accross the Galaxy whom he wants to locate.

Meh. Kreia one-upped that and had a psychic conversation with someone across the galaxy. As dis Luke in Dark Empire.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@ Nephthys

Revan and Bastilla were enough to take on Sith Triumvirate on their own. Do the math.

Heh. Sure.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, another hint for you:

"Led by a woman named Kreia, the rogue Jedi turned to the dark side teachings uncovered by Malak and Revan. Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before."

Kriea studied what Revan had already known.

Yes, Revan found Malachor. So? That doesn't automatically mean he used the technique. I mean, unless he was dumb.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Continued...

Revan had no issues moving heavy objects with the Force. He never struggled in such situations.

How heavy? Was it heavier than a Hutt? Or House?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And finally;

Spoiler:
And Revan could feed on others to replenish himself. He does this to survive in the stasis. And he engages the Sith Emperor in a very long war of WILLS. His intervention manages to delay the invasion of the Republic.

That Reva knew Force Drain is irrelevent. It is not the same thing as Nihilus's drain.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Regarding the Sith Emperor;

He is so damn powerful that one wonders if even Darth Sidious can stand up to him in single combat. It is clear that Master Yoda cannot.

The Sith Emperor has surpassed the likes of Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun by an enormous margin.

How is it clear Yoda couldn't? Yoda was more or less Sidious' equal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh. Kreia one-upped that and had a psychic conversation with someone across the galaxy. As dis Luke in Dark Empire.

Here is the feat though:

Once he had tried to reach out to her with the Force. Serving in battle with someone formed a special bond; even across the breadth of the galaxy he should have been able to get some vague sense of her presence. Yet he had felt nothing.

He could not sense her because Exile was cut off from the Force by this time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Heh. Sure.

Had Revan returned to face this new threat, Bastila would have eagerly fought by his side. Together they might have been able to quell the uprising, ending it before the horrors of war enveloped the Republic and millions lost their lives.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, Revan found Malachor. So? That doesn't automatically mean he used the technique. I mean, unless he was dumb.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How heavy? Was it heavier than a Hutt? Or House?

Here is one such occurrence:

At the far end of the hall, another half a dozen of the Imperial Guard rounded the corner. Revan reached out with the Force and ripped the vaulted stone archway in the ceiling above them free from its setting. A shower of dust and debris rained down on the reinforcements, sending them into temporary retreat.

We don't know heavy this thing was but Revan ripped that stone structure to shreds.

Also, this is not the only one.

He managed to instantly force-open the two locked enormous and heavy durasteel doors of the Throne room with a mere guesture.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That Reva knew Force Drain is irrelevent. It is not the same thing as Nihilus's drain.

Led by a woman named Kreia, the rogue Jedi turned to the dark side teachings uncovered by Malak and Revan. Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before. They began a systemic purge of the galaxy, hunting down those who still held fast to the Jedi Code, killing them by the tens of thousands. Their relentless pursuit virtually wiped out the Order, and only those few who managed to flee or hide survived.

No need to dodge my points.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How is it clear Yoda couldn't? Yoda was more or less Sidious' equal.

Also, I have told you before that you need to let go off your old beliefs. Star Wars is constantly changing and evolving with passage of time. What is stated in ROTS novelization may no longer remain valid.

The Sith Emperor would destroy Yoda without much effort. His Force attacks are so dominating and overwhelming that no living organism can tolerate them. He is stronger then the combined might of 100 ancient powerful Dark Lords put to together.

Spoiler:
He killed the entire Dark Council made up of the strongest Sith Lords in the Galaxy by himself.

Even his mental barrage can override the WILL of his foes. He will just mind wipe Yoda and make him his pawn.

Start getting used to all the shit that EU is coming up with lately.

100 dark lords? They were simply sith lords who weren't even on the dark council. While the feat is incredibly impressive, we don't know how powerful those sith were.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
100 dark lords? They were simply sith lords who weren't even on the dark council. While the feat is incredibly impressive, we don't know how powerful those sith were.

Spoiler:
"And the Emperor had to trick hundreds of other powerful Sith into working with him so he could draw on their power."

"He’s stronger now," Revan said.

Also,

Spoiler:
Meetra was no expert on dark side sorcery, but it was safe to assume Vitiate not only survived the ritual, but emerged more powerful than ever. And with the destruction of everyone on Nathema—including his research team—he alone would have known the location of Dromund Kaas. The plan was both horrifying and brilliant. In addition to becoming more powerful than Meetra could imagine, Vitiate could blame the extinction of his homeworld on the Jedi, further panicking the remaining Sith worlds.

Those were certainly not weaklings. Those were the best ones among the survivors. And the Sith Emperor devoured all of them.

Clearly the power Meetra is refering to is political power.

Originally posted by Nephthys Clearly the power Meetra is refering to is political power.

You are obviously wrong.

Here is the full thing:

Spoiler:
Meetra was no expert on dark side sorcery, but it was safe to assume Vitiate not only survived the ritual, but emerged more powerful than ever. And with the destruction of everyone on Nathema—including his research team—he alone would have known the location of Dromund Kaas.

The plan was both horrifying and brilliant. In addition to becoming more powerful than Meetra could imagine, Vitiate could blame the extinction of his homeworld on the Jedi, further panicking the remaining Sith worlds. Then he could have offered them a glimmer of hope, promising to lead all those who swore loyalty to him to a place where the Jedi would never find them.

Few more snips about Revan:

Revan could heal his wounds with the Force directly.

And;

Spoiler:
She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be.

More powerful tha Nihilus... Intresting.

Really though, the Exile just came out looking rather weak in this book.

Originally posted by ares834
More powerful tha Nihilus... Intresting.

Really though, the Exile just came out looking rather weak in this book.

I agree with this statement. Neph, I'll try to gather some resources. I can get scans of the KotOR Sourcebook easy enough, but finding the right conversation is difficult since I no longer possess my copy of KotOR II.

If you want I could look for it. I've still got my copy.

That would be great. IIRC, it's one of her optional dialogues about Revan, onboard the ship. Modding your influence might help get it early.

I really miss that game. Even Peragus.

I'll be back with your argument shortly.

Damn, does it need to be on the ship? I'm stuck on Onderon.

I'm fairly certain it's a discussion in her room on the Ebon Hawk.

Goddamit. Looks like I need to solve that ****ing murder again.