Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Really? Show me that plz. And it's not straight up defeat, it's a straight up stalemate. If I wanted to nitpick, Yoda disarmed Sidious in between scenes so he WAS winning.
The only thing that shows Sidious was disarmed was the Junior Novelization. Yoda on the otherhand was disarmed.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The only thing that shows Sidious was disarmed was the Junior Novelization. Yoda on the otherhand was disarmed.
The Blu-Ray behind-the-scenes storyboards for the original conception of the fight show Yoda clearly disarming Sidious. Granted, that's not shown on-screen, but it can be assumed or inferred within reason. The concept that Sidious put his lightsaber away in mid-combat is pretty much violating the Razor though. I mean, really? "Hey, fast Jedi Master of amazing power! I'll just tuck away my saber now that I'm on higher ground. Rofl."
The screenplay's account of events regarding Sidious's disarming is, at best, equally absurd.
Revenge of the Sith screenplay, IMSDB.com
203 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMRER-MAIN ARENA-NIGHTYODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.
The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.
YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.
YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod.
Yoda disarms Sidious, who responds with a blast of Force lightning; Yoda deflects the attack, vows to destroy Sidious, and yet leaps away for no reason? This is both counterintuitive and detrimental to Yoda's stated objection to "destroy the Sith." Why would you release your adversary when you hold the advantage?
Originally posted by 8675309/Jenny
The screenplay's account of events regarding Sidious's disarming is, at best, equally absurd.Yoda disarms Sidious, who responds with a blast of Force lightning; Yoda deflects the attack, vows to destroy Sidious, and yet leaps away for no reason? This is both counterintuitive and detrimental to Yoda's stated objection to "destroy the Sith." Why would you release your adversary when you hold the advantage?
Really though, who are you to question Yoda? Yoda made all kinds of mistakes. Not really gives us reason to ignore canon, simply because he made another...
I think we're in agreement that an off-hand, tongue-in-cheek remark by Lucas doesn't constitute official canon policy.
Originally posted by truejedi
Really though, who are you to question Yoda?
I'm a fan of the Star Wars franchise and contributor to George Lucas's financial wealth, not unlike Stealth Moose, who recently questioned what he perceived to be inherently faulty logic behind the idea that Sidious would put away his blade in combat against a Jedi Master and, might I add, was free to do so without your censorship.
Just kidding.
I'm, in fact, a certified federal agent who is conducting a high priority investigation into the logic that underpins the actions and decisions of various characters in the Star Wars mythos. All in the name of national security, of course.
Originally posted by truejedi
Yoda made all kinds of mistakes. Not really gives us reason to ignore canon, simply because he made another...
This one would be slightly more critical and correspondingly stupid on an unprecedented magnitude. If you feel inclined to believe that Yoda, a seasoned Jedi Master of eight centuries' worth of experience, is inclined to release his quarry over whom he is said to hold a definite advantage in order to satisfy his own sense of dramatic timing, feel free. As for me, the certified federal agent? While I'm not inclined to disregard the idea that Sidious was disarmed, I am dubious over how the screenplay says it occurred.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Good.1. I can't find this quote being directly attributed to Leeland Chee anywhere. Source please.
2. The only time I see this quote and it isn't being rabidly repeated by a pro-Sidious debater somewhere is the discussion page on Wookieepedia. Again, there it is referenced as the entry from the SW Database at least around 2009. The Database no longer exists, and it's debatable who wrote all those articles anyways.
3. Chee is allowed to address continuity discrepancies. He is not allowed to arbitrarily make power levels, especially since he is not the creator of ANY characters within the mythos at this point. His job is to police EU for major errors, not write it into a consistent cohesive narrative that makes complete sense to GL's word. If he did, all post-ROTJ games and books would be removed from the canon, and guess what? It has not.
I heavily recommend using something other than blanket statements to support your arguments.
The Sith Emperor or Marka Ragnos being stronger is a continuity discrepancy.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Sith Emperor or Marka Ragnos being stronger is a continuity discrepancy.
Continuity is in an eternal state of flux in Star Wars, we need only look at the past three years to reaffirm that fact. The canon policy dictates that the films supercedes everything else in terms of what is true and what is not, yet Star Wars: The Clone Wars has contradicted them more than once.
Originally posted by 8675309/Jenny
Continuity is in an eternal state of flux in Star Wars, we need only look at the past three years to reaffirm that fact. The canon policy dictates that the films supercedes everything else in terms of what is true and what is not, yet Star Wars: The Clone Wars has contradicted them more than once.
Clone Wars is G-canon though.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Clone Wars is G-canon though.
I realize that the Canadian has already corrected you, but it's important to accept the fact that Star Wars canon is constantly fluctuating. What is and what is not canon is subject to Lucas's directives. Stealth Moose points out that Lucas disavows the circumstances of the EU, but the fact remains that both 'worlds' as Lucas calls them are ultimately subject to his whims. If both the EU and films were truly equal, then the EU wouldn't go to the lengths it does to comport itself with his vision. It takes a subservient role. Ultimately, I believe that the policies espoused by Ushgarak and the moderators are true in principle: what is canon is simply a matter of what material George Lucas wants to be canon. If he really wanted to remove things like Dark Empire and the Hand of Thrawn duology from canon, all he'd have to do is make one phone and both would be reissued with the infinities stamp on them.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Sith Emperor or Marka Ragnos being stronger is a continuity discrepancy.
Erm, no. No it's not. You know why?
Because EU is entirely independent from GL's intentions.
It's not his world. Lucas has repeatedly mentioned that there are two worlds - his and EU's.
"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
And before you go contradictory on me with a random Chee quote taking out of context, let's address that right off.
CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."
This is a huge problem in Chee's interpretation of EU continuity, mainly because GL (his boss) has clearly told us multiple times that there are TWO WORLDS here. And we've already established that GL, is not the leader of the EU world. He's completely divorced from it, to the extent of allowing writers full reign, even if they attempt to emulate his style and tenets, clearly he understands and allows that they go off on "tangents".
Now, let's consider how GL contradicts Chee once again:
TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"
LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"
So GL says it clearly: EU is allowed to exist as its own universe, it's own world, with very minor guidelines set by him. Absolutely nowhere has he stated that no one shall be more powerful than Yoda or Sidious. Nowhere. The only times he's mentioned their respective powers is within the context of his own universe.
TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"
LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."
Again, nothing after RotJ. GL has stated clearly that the story of Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker, his rise and fall. Therefore, his "intent" or "vision" is only that. The confines of his world revolves around Anakin, and therefore any material besides that grossly misconstrues his intentions and wishes.
Now let's compare that again with Chee:
CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."
The bolded and underlined quote is clearly invalidated by GL. He's given writers a blank slate with a few guidelines that he expects not to be violated. Here's what we've conclusively determined to be forbidden by GL:
1. Anything after RotJ (He admits novels exist after, but he expressly forbids more episodes via film).
2. Names (GL has a list of names "in use" which he monitors).
3. Ragnos' tomb can't look "too Egyptian".
4. Etc.
So let's recap:
1. Nowhere has GL stated as an EU/alternate universe guideline that "no one can surpass Yoda/Sidious or just Sidious in terms of martial or Force prowess."
2. GL has basically given writers a blank slate in many ways, recognizing that they will go wild and contradict the very small scope he intended for the SW universe.
3. Chee contradicts himself and GL often and talks out of his ass. His "stance" on anything as an LFL official should be taken with a large grain of salt, especially since he has shown a serious movie-canon bias.
4. We've established that GL in any case isn't universally binding in terms of absolute blanket statements because he's disavowed any control over EU due to lack of interest and knowledge.
5. We've established that Chee is not an expert to construct universal power charts because EU is its own continuity and he is not a creator of anything with it. His power is to address continuity errors relating directly to GL's intentions in the movies themselves.
6. Which leads us back to 1. GL hasn't said that other Force users can't surpass his own creations.
You were saying?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Haven't seen Mizukage Yoda since this.
Right here baby.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
-Snip-
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So what you are saying is that you think that Lucasarts position on canon is bullshit so you are going to do whatever you want? This is why the canon order was established because inconsistencies like this arrise.
Let me make this plain: No, I do NOT think that "Lucasarts positio on canon is bullshit" and therefore I can "do whatever I want". The very point that you completely mistook and then misrepresented my stance speaks volumes about your interpretation issues here. Let's get this back on track.
You asserted certain things as immutable facts universally because they originated from GL. We both arrived at the conclusion that this is false because GL, the highest LFL official has both declared that EU is a separate universe and that he knows almost nothing of it. Thus the assertions you brought up were invalidated right there. That you are attempting to skirt this established fact to still favor your earlier assertions is rather funny because you've already conceded.