Wolverine vs the gods

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
Srank was saying he thought Odin and Zeus were just limited to their base strength and durability with no other powers at all.

Dam then clarified that he meant Zeus as he was fighting Hulk and then Srank admitted that Wolverine would get roflstomped.

I think there's just a miscommunication going on.

thats the problem, srank assumes that odin/zeus base strenth is less than 100...whe its never been depicted as such

Originally posted by Sin I AM
thats the problem, srank assumes that odin/zeus base strenth is less than 100...whe its never been depicted as such

What I assume is that Odin sans the Odin Force, and that Zeus sans the Thunderbolt of Zeus (which according to Van Lente is an independent power source, the Odin Force equivalent of the Greek pantheon, that marks the Skyfather), that Odin and Zeus are more or less the physical equals of Thor or Herc. Not too shabby, but a far cry from head butting Galactus.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What I assume is that Odin sans the Odin Force, and that Zeus sans the Thunderbolt of Zeus (which according to Van Lente is an independent power source, the Odin Force equivalent of the Greek pantheon, that marks the Skyfather), that Odin and Zeus are more or less the physical equals of Thor or Herc. Not too shabby, but a far cry from head butting Galactus.

and what your not getting is that the odin force is his power. its innate, and since we have yet to see a odin without the OF...that makes your point moot, and baseless

now it can be argued that zeus' thuderbolt is an outside source, since hera, athena, etc have been shown to wield it...but after the h2h altercation between him and bruce i dont see how being without it would lessen him

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What I assume is that Odin sans the Odin Force, and that Zeus sans the Thunderbolt of Zeus (which according to Van Lente is an independent power source, the Odin Force equivalent of the Greek pantheon, that marks the Skyfather), that Odin and Zeus are more or less the physical equals of Thor or Herc. Not too shabby, but a far cry from head butting Galactus.

There's no definitive base level for Odin or Zeus, the comics simply don't exist. Even significantly weakened and poisoned, Odin has one shotted Ulik (Who coincidentally was beating Wolverine) etc.

Odin without the Odin Force is mortal or dead.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
and what your not getting is that the odin force is his power. its innate, and since we have yet to see a odin without the OF...that makes your point moot, and baseless

now it can be argued that zeus' thuderbolt is an outside source, since hera, athena, etc have been shown to wield it...but after the h2h altercation between him and bruce i dont see how being without it would lessen him

Yeaaaaaaaaah the Odin Force isn't some innate ability that is unique to Odin, nor is it is he powerless without it. Thor has wielded it, so have others, Odin has even lent to others only for them to refuse to return it. Originally it was supposed to be the life force of his brothers Ville and Ve merged with his own, but that has been retcon'd. The most recent history he received the Odin Force from Bor (when it was still called the Bor Force) when he became the All Father. It's some ambient energy that the the Godhead of the Norse pantheon can tap into.

Looks like Skrank has been reading some Thor comics that I've missed. Where exactly did Odin inherent the Bor Force? Vil and Ve were retconned, are you referring to the recent Fraction comic? I'd advise you to not bring that up as even I'm not certain what's cannon since Fraction took over.

Odin can't survive -at least as a God- without some form of the Odin Force as it is his essence. It even permeates the core of every Asgardian and the land of Asgard. Simply being the Godhead of the Norse pantheon doesn't mean you can tap into the Odin Force, being able to access that power is what actually signifies the next heir. Otherwise Balder would have been able to wield it.

It's a semi sentient power that passes on to the next God in line to rule the House of Odin.

This is crazy, Zeus does to Wolverine's healing factor what he did to the Hulk. His strenght level is sufficient enough to shatter Logan's skeleton and grind his bones to dust. Zues and Odin win with via mega stomp.

I give all the gods 10/10 against logan. Logan's fights against Hulk shouldn't be used here, Hulk is just a brawler, these gods are warriors and are probably on par or if not better fighters than him and are at class 100+

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Looks like Skrank has been reading some Thor comics that I've missed. Where exactly did Odin inherent the Bor Force? Vil and Ve were retconned, are you referring to the recent Fraction comic? I'd advise you to not bring that up as even I'm not certain what's cannon since Fraction took over.

Odin can't survive -at least as a God- without some form of the Odin Force as it is his essence. It even permeates the core of every Asgardian and the land of Asgard. Simply being the Godhead of the Norse pantheon doesn't mean you can tap into the Odin Force, being able to access that power is what actually signifies the next heir. Otherwise Balder would have been able to wield it.

It's a semi sentient power that passes on to the next God in line to rule the House of Odin.

Vile and Ve weren't retconned. They were with Odin during the flashback in the last issue of The Mighty Thor, and before the renumbering they were with him when he found the seed in the crack of the world. The part of Odin's history where he received the Odin Force by absorbing the life force from Vile and Ve has been retcond more than once, and the most recent version is that he inherited it from Bor. The Vile and Ve stuff is all Fraction, but the Bor stuff was still JMS.

Where has it ever been said that Odin can't survive without the Odin Force? What is there to suggest that even without the Odin Force he wouldn't be just another top tier Asguardian? I think you are making assumptions, and you are using the fact that it is named the Odin Force to draw some sort of conclusion that he needs it to live. He doesn't. He calls it the Odin Force because his name is Odin and he has to call it something, not because it innately has anything to do with him or because it is essential to his being. Hell it was called the Thor Force several times when Thor had access to it. The Odin Force is no more essential to Odin as it was to Thor, he could live without it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Vile and Ve weren't retconned. They were with Odin during the flashback in the last issue of The Mighty Thor, and before the renumbering they were with him when he found the seed in the crack of the world. The part of Odin's history where he received the Odin Force by absorbing the life force from Vile and Ve has been retcond more than once, and the most recent version is that he inherited it from Bor. The Vile and Ve stuff is all Fraction, but the Bor stuff was still JMS.

They weren't retconned out of existence but under Fraction, their part in the Odin Force's creation was almost certainly retconned, which is what I meant.

Where was it shown that Odin inherited the Odin Force (Previously named the Bor Force according to you) from Bor? Loki didn't even truly kill him and when he was brought back in Thor 600 there was a clear distinction between his power, and the Odin Force.

Fraction also retconned the entire history of Bor that we saw under JMS including his battle with Thor, so that presents a whole new set of problems.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
They weren't retconned out of existence but under Fraction, their part in the Odin Force's creation was almost certainly retconned, which is what I meant.

Where was it shown that Odin inherited the Odin Force (Previously named the Bor Force according to you) from Bor? Loki didn't even truly kill him and when he was brought back in Thor 600 there was a clear distinction between his power, and the Odin Force.

Fraction also retconned the entire history of Bor that we saw under JMS including his battle with Thor, so that presents a whole new set of problems.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
They weren't retconned out of existence but under Fraction, their part in the Odin Force's creation was almost certainly retconned, which is what I meant.

Yeah, but weren't the retconn'd out of the Odin Force long before Fraction? I vaguely remember something about group of Asguardians surviving a Ragnarok, and they combined their essences with Gungnir to recreate Odin and the Odin Force was the combined life force of those gods. Does that sound familiar?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Where was it shown that Odin inherited the Odin Force (Previously named the Bor Force according to you) from Bor? Loki didn't even truly kill him and when he was brought back in Thor 600 there was a clear distinction between his power, and the Odin Force.

I don't know, one of the JMS issues. I'm on an ipad right now so I'm not gong to go digging around scans to find it. I'm almost positive the Bor Force was referenced in one of the flash backs to Bors origin.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Fraction also retconned the entire Bor origin that we saw under JMS so that presents a whole new set of problems.

You sure? What did Fraction do that makes you think he ousted Bor from continuity? I never got that implication. Fraction even referenced that Bor was the one who found the crack in the world where the Life Seed was. I think you are wrong.

.......when did this recton
happen?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah, but weren't the retconn'd out of the Odin Force long before Fraction? I vaguely remember something about group of Asguardians surviving a Ragnarok, and they combined their essences with Gungnir to recreate Odin and the Odin Force was the combined life force of those gods. Does that sound familiar?

No that came before and was debunked by the Odin/Vili/Ve story. That entire origin was retconned into continuity by Roy Thomas in Thor #294, the idea was that every Ragnarok cycle the Asgardians were reborn. The gods that we currently know were made about 2000 years ago, under this origin, Odin created Balder and the rest of the known Asgardians, even their child hood memories were fabricated:

As you can understand, this creates a whole mess of problems. When Simonson took over, he pretty much took a dumb on this idea and had the origin of Odin/Vili/Ve retold by Odin in Thor #349:

He even had Buri (Thor's great grand father) debunk the story told by the Odin eye under Roy Thomas:
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6997/tiwazeyeballlie.jpg

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't know, one of the JMS issues. I'm on an ipad right now so I'm not gong to go digging around scans to find it. I'm almost positive the Bor Force was referenced in one of the flash backs to Bors origin.

I don't recall anything of the sort. Under JMS, the Odin Power was renamed the Thor Power because he was now the head of the pantheon but there was a very clear distinction between whatever power Bor wielded and the Odin Force. He even recognized it as his son's might:

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You sure? What did Fraction do that makes you think he ousted Bor from continuity? I never got that implication. Fraction even referenced that Bor was the one who found the crack in the world where the Life Seed was. I think you are wrong.

Yes, I'm sure. In Mighty Thor #7, Bor died while Odin and his brothers were still children, which is completely contradictory to anything Bor related done under JMS:

Under his pen, Bor was cursed by Loki while Odin was a grown man -soon after the birth of mankind- and was brought back in the modern time line:

His new stories have made an even bigger mess of Asgardian continuity, something I long thought to be impossible. Yes, it was under Fraction that Bor planted that the previous World Seed in the last Universal cycle but that doesn't change what recently happened.

baka

No, I don't think I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
utter fail...and to think i considered u a serious poster

Good that that's past tense.

Originally posted by jalek moye
Wait Thor and Bor never fought now?

It depends on whether you accept the new status quo, if you do, the answer is yes and no.

The current stance is that since Asgardian's are Gods, they don't have actual histories but stories. And stories can change. Which pretty much means they can do whatever they want with their history and everything still counts.

This isn't just a policy, it's acknowledged within the comics. A key factor in the Serpent's defeat is Loki changing his story with the shadow of Twilight, Surtur's sword. It was also a key plot point in Fear Itself #7.2, with the Tanarus retcon. As a Thor fan, this makes shit very complicated. I'm probably going to stop trying to keep track of all the continuity shifts and changes.

It's like Morrison's New God retcon but less cosmic and more mythological. Which I can understand, making every Asgardian a Multiversal entity that we've never really seen kind of presents a problem although I wouldn't be surprised if they go for something like it eventually.

It kind of shits on the other pantheons but they were never as important to Marvel as the Asgardians.

Fractions all dumb and stuff...

Yea.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Where has it ever been said that Odin can't survive without the Odin Force? What is there to suggest that even without the Odin Force he wouldn't be just another top tier Asguardian? I think you are making assumptions, and you are using the fact that it is named the Odin Force to draw some sort of conclusion that he needs it to live. He doesn't. He calls it the Odin Force because his name is Odin and he has to call it something, not because it innately has anything to do with him or because it is essential to his being. Hell it was called the Thor Force several times when Thor had access to it. The Odin Force is no more essential to Odin as it was to Thor, he could live without it.

Making assumptions? Lawlz, I'm not pulling this information out of my ass, I'm basing it on decades of continuity. Which is no mean feat mind you, keeping track of all the Asgardian related shit is difficult.

When the Odin Power in it's entirety was being drained from Odin to sustain a civilization, he began to die:

Luckily, as long as some of the Odin Power exists (Not counting that which empowers Asgard and the Asgardians) he can never truly die:

The Odin Force is his Godly Essence, even when his power has been lent to others he still possess it to an extent:

Continued....

His also connected to all the other main wellsprings of the Odin Force, for example, he could tell Asgard was dying when his power was dampened and later on drew on it's strength:

You don't understand, he cannot be an Asgardian immortal without the Odin Force, it's power is what makes them Gods, it exists in everything they do:

It's why on a whim he can depower them if he removes a portion of the Odin Force:

If they are bereft of it entirely, they became lifeless:

It's even the life blood that sustains their home dimension:
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5759/page019.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7450/page018z.jpg

Thor out of all Asgardians is the least depended on the Odin Force but that's because his of both Earth and Asgard. One of the main reasons he sired a son with Gaea.