Is this a joke-thread or something? No one can defeat TOAA, since it was stated that the writer stands behind the writer.
Because of that TOAA is the most powerful fictional character ever created, since he has no limits and controls simply everything. You could basically say that if Reed dies, then it's because TOAA had his fingers in the game.
It would be different if this thread would be all about Richards and Batman VS The Presence, or Man of Miracles, the Gods from the DC and the Image universe. They were created by a writer as Gods and that's their role. Things can happen to them, if the writer decides to, but TOAA? That's actually a different league. No way they would be able to somehow beat TOAA, if he does not wish to, since he has the power of the plot, he is the plot.
If we're talking about the powerlevel of uber-powerful comic book characters, then it would be something like ... (keep in mind that it's only my opinion ...
Tier 1:
- The One Above All (who is basically the comic book writer) ... from MARVEL
- The Presence / The Great Evil Beast ... from DC
- Man Of Miracles (also called Mother Of Existence) ... from IMAGE
Tier 2:
- Living Tribunal ... from MARVEL
- Divine Spawn ... from IMAGE
- Michael Demiguros ... from DC
- Lucifer Morningstar ... from DC
Note:
- Yes I know that Michael and Lucifer are actually from Vertigo, but it belongs to DC, so ...
- And yeah, PR Beyonder and PR Molecule Man should be on the list too, also above the Living Tribunal, but they were retconned into oblivion, so ...
- And yeah again, Protégé has the potential to be on the list too and surpass the Living Tribunal, but still ...
Conclusion:
Reed "Mr. Fantastic" Richards and Bruce "The Batman" Wayne would need some uber-powerful reality warping powers or something like that to be able to affect TOP Tier characters. Only tech should never be enough to do something to beings who destroy universes while thinking.
Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah, he's more than good enough to duplicate what the council of Reeds did. A Reed Richards with ambitions of conquest would be a very scary villain.
A villain Reed Richards would be Alexander Luthor Jr. Someone who not only brought back the Multiverse, but manipulated it as well.
@Enzeru
Maybe you should go back and re-read the OP...
Logically, of course no one should be able to defeat (let alone challenge) TOAA, but these two characters domination over the PIS Force is so great that there is practically no one they cant beat; they can perform at levels far, far, FAR, beyond their tierings if need be...
In addition, the OP simply asks who would have the better chance of defeating TOAA, not wether or not either of them actually would defeat TOAA...
Originally posted by zopzop
Reed Richards wins and it's not even close. What has Bat God done that can compare to the following :a) Rogue Celestials were rampaging in the Council of Reeds subspace, they killed multiple IG bearers and laughed off attacks from the Starbrand!, yet Reed pulls a random weapon of his out of the closet and destroys one of them, they flee. Random Reed weapon >>>>>>>>>>>>IG>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Starbrand
b) Reed has destroyed (some say BFRed) the M-body of the LT, the second in command to TOAA. Only the HotU has ever been able to accomplish this. Reed = TOAA. Even to those who say he "only" BFRed him, how the fxxk do you BFR someone who is omnipresent? Reed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Logic.
c) Some say Doom is one of the greatest threats and keenest minds in the universe (a prep God on the level of Batman), yet the Council of Reeds pwned multiple alt reality versions of Doom and lobotomized them into drooling idiots, proving Reed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Doom (and hence Batman).
d) Reed's spawn, Franklin, is a reality warping, pocket universe creating, "Mephisto destroying in his own realm" (something Galactus himself couldn't do) God. Reed has fathered a literal GOD.
c) Last but not least, Reed recreated all creation. During the Abraxas saga, Reed used the UN to recreate all creation and undo the trans dimensional damage Abraxas had caused. Now some may say, it's the UN that did it, but the UN is only half of it. To wield the UN effectively, the user must have total understanding of the object he wishes to use the UN on. This means that Reed had TOTAL understanding of reality and creation on all levels of existence to pull off what he did. Reed is omniscient.
Reed can't beat TOAA because Reed IS TOAA. Batman dies though.
Your argument seems to be air-tight; I cant find a single flaw in it...very compelling! 🙂
👆
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@EnzeruMaybe you should go back and re-read the OP..
Well, I did, also before, but it still applies. Logically there is no way for them to find a way to defeat TOAA, even if "good" PIS is included.
It's like me trying to win a weight lifting tournament against the worlds strongest man. Of course I could build some fancy gadget to help me out (if I would be intelligent enough for something like that), but it would still be against the rules and I wouldn't stand a chance.
Reed Richards would be totally confusing, since in that case it would be Stan Lee saying that Reed Richards has more control over the Marvel universe then he has.
Of course, it's not up to Stan Lee anymore, but other people, but you know what I mean. There is no way to defeat TOAA if he controls your every move and if there was a way, the magic would be totally gone and I would not expect a writer to pull off something like that.
Not even classic Dr. Strange was able to compete with the Living Tribunal and Dr. Strange is all about illogical magic. What do you expect Bruce Wayne to do? Or even Reed, who repairs universes with his tech (LoL), but could still be erased from existance by TOAA without any effort at all.
Originally posted by Enzeru
Well, I did, also before, but it still applies. Logically there is no way for them to find a way to defeat TOAA, even if "good" PIS is included.It's like me trying to win a weight lifting tournament against the worlds strongest man. Of course I could build some fancy gadget to help me out (if I would be intelligent enough for something like that), but it would still be against the rules and I wouldn't stand a chance.
Reed Richards would be totally confusing, since in that case it would be Stan Lee saying that Reed Richards has more control over the Marvel universe then he has.
Of course, it's not up to Stan Lee anymore, but other people, but you know what I mean. There is no way to defeat TOAA if he controls your every move and if there was a way, the magic would be totally gone and I would not expect a writer to pull off something like that.
Not even classic Dr. Strange was able to compete with the Living Tribunal and Dr. Strange is all about illogical magic. What do you expect Bruce Wayne to do? Or even Reed, who repairs universes with his tech (LoL), but could still be erased from existance by TOAA without any effort at all.
Galactus once overpowered Stan Lee and drew him into a Fantastic Four comic; anything can happen in a comic and logic is not a factor when illogic strikes (and illogic strikes at an alarming rate when it comes to Reed and Bruce) ...
So once again, who has the better chance of defeating TOAA...Reed or Bruce?
Originally posted by zopzop
Reed Richards wins and it's not even close. What has Bat God done that can compare to the following :a) Rogue Celestials were rampaging in the Council of Reeds subspace, they killed multiple IG bearers and laughed off attacks from the Starbrand!, yet Reed pulls a random weapon of his out of the closet and destroys one of them, they flee. Random Reed weapon >>>>>>>>>>>>IG>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Starbrand
b) Reed has destroyed (some say BFRed) the M-body of the LT, the second in command to TOAA. Only the HotU has ever been able to accomplish this. Reed = TOAA. Even to those who say he "only" BFRed him, how the fxxk do you BFR someone who is omnipresent? Reed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Logic.
c) Some say Doom is one of the greatest threats and keenest minds in the universe (a prep God on the level of Batman), yet the Council of Reeds pwned multiple alt reality versions of Doom and lobotomized them into drooling idiots, proving Reed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Doom (and hence Batman).
d) Reed's spawn, Franklin, is a reality warping, pocket universe creating, "Mephisto destroying in his own realm" (something Galactus himself couldn't do) God. Reed has fathered a literal GOD.
c) Last but not least, Reed recreated all creation. During the Abraxas saga, Reed used the UN to recreate all creation and undo the trans dimensional damage Abraxas had caused. Now some may say, it's the UN that did it, but the UN is only half of it. To wield the UN effectively, the user must have total understanding of the object he wishes to use the UN on. This means that Reed had TOTAL understanding of reality and creation on all levels of existence to pull off what he did. Reed is omniscient.
Reed can't beat TOAA because Reed IS TOAA. Batman dies though.
As a big time reed Richards fan, this post almost brought a tear to my eye.