Thor vs Black Adam

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Captain Marvel, and more importantly, Guy Gardner, would disagree with that underlined statement.

When that comment was made Captain Marvel wasn't present, Power Girl and Atom Smasher were the strongest ones there. Black Adam faced Billy/Freddy/Mary back in Khandaq or whatever, they weren't present when the heroes attacked him near China. IIRC, Marvel was asking the Egyptian Gods to remove Teth's powers at the time.

Edit: Here's the scene I'm talking about:
http://imageshack.us/f/356/racerxwwiiib4p11ji2.jpg/

It wasn't only a poor showing for Adam (At least respect wise) but the heroes came off looking stupid as well. Reminds me of the time Kyle punched Deathstroke while wearing the Green Lantern Ring. If a writer can't figure out a way for a character to take on so many heroes, he should just not include them.

Originally posted by cdtm
J'onn and wizard Billy are more powerful, and Adam made short work of them physically.

I haven't read the arc in a while but I'm pretty sure Adam didn't get the upper hand on John up until the psychic backlash, and while he was beating Marvel, Billy IIRC was power sharing and was try to reason with him.

I don't think he ever faced Billy as the Wizard up until he ambushed him with Isis after World War 3.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Captain Marvel, and more importantly, Guy Gardner, would disagree with that underlined statement.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
When that comment was made Captain Marvel wasn't present, Power Girl and Atom Smasher were the strongest ones there. Black Adam faced Billy/Freddy/Mary back in Khandaq or whatever, they weren't present when the heroes attacked him near China. IIRC, Marvel was asking the Egyptian Gods to remove Teth's powers at the time.

Edit: Here's the scene I'm talking about:
http://imageshack.us/f/356/racerxwwiiib4p11ji2.jpg/

It wasn't only a poor showing for Adam (At least respect wise) but the heroes came off looking stupid as well. Reminds me of the time Kyle punched Deathstroke while wearing the Green Lantern Ring. If a writer can't figure out a way for a character to take on so many heroes, he should just not include them.

I don't exactly see how fighting off a Flash, two Green Lanterns, Jade, Power Girl, Firestorm, S.T.R.I.P.E.S. and Dr. Light all simultaneously within three panels is a poor showing. Particularly, after having gone on a week-long marathon of being tortured by the Science Squad, fighting the entire world's military, the Teen Titans, the Marvel family, etc. without respite.

Whoever Martian Manhunter, who isn't even among the group portrayed at that time, is describing as being stronger, faster, etc. is frankly irrelevant. He could be speaking of the heroes in general (and probably is).

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And Captain Marvel, Power Girl, Alan Scott, and Guy Gardner were all there at the end.

Captain Marvel came at the very end, and wasn't present for this battle so I don't see how his relevant.

Alan Scott and Guy Gardner are more powerful than Power Girl, they aren't physically stronger. They can amp themselves etc. but the comic made a distinction between power, strength and speed, which should too.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't exactly see how fighting off a Flash, two Green Lanterns, Jade, Power Girl, Firestorm, S.T.R.I.P.E.S. and Dr. Light all simultaneously within three panels is a poor showing. Particularly, after having gone on a week-long marathon of being tortured by the Science Squad, fighting the entire world's military, the Teen Titans, the Marvel family, etc. without respite.

His strength and invulnerability in that scene were downplayed imho . Few characters there should be able to survive blood lusted blows from Adam unprotected in some form and the damage done to him shouldn't have been that severe. IIRC, at one point John even melted part of his face with heat vision, which is silly. But whatever, comics.

^ All of them were holding back. When alan scott and power girl restrain you, it's not a good showing for you. In black reign Teth made short work of JSA in one or two pages while holding back. You know whenever champions of shazam turn into their powered form from human form, the lightning completely heals them, teth used it against J'onn after the previous torture from science squad so any damage or fatigue is irrelevent. Now what damaged adam's reputation was how he was using his full strength against everyone and yet not a single hero was killed not even stargirl or many of less durable heroes. Guy went recklessely and got his ribs broken in their first ambush, john was nowhere to be seen, firestorm was pretty much useless the way they used him, alan was going h2h with adam. His only good showing was against j'onn when he floored him in a few punches. Regular superman was fighting a shitload of heroes including power girl, j'onn, kilowog with two rings, ultraa and many others after shrugging everything a bloodlusted Hal jordan could throw at him, manhandling kilowog with two rings, exposed to kryptonite, fighting a blackrock batman and even then they couldn't even restrain him. Throw a sunamped superman in between the heroes adam was fighting with the same amount of jobbing and he would railroad all of them.

Originally posted by abhilegend
^ What did he actually do? Beating teen titans, ripping someone's arm or killing terra? For all his "badassery" he didn't kill anybody important despite not pulling any punches.

that sounds exactly like SBP

^ 👆

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Captain Marvel came at the very end, and wasn't present for this battle so I don't see how his relevant.

Alan Scott and Guy Gardner are more powerful than Power Girl, they aren't physically stronger. They can amp themselves etc. but the comic made a distinction between power, strength and speed, which should too.

Martian Manhunter referred to "those among us" who were stronger, faster or more powerful. "Us" is obviously not limited to the people present in those three panels as J'onn isn't even present in those panels.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
His strength and invulnerability in that scene were downplayed imho . Few characters there should be able to survive blood lusted blows from Adam unprotected in some form and the damage done to him shouldn't have been that severe. IIRC, at one point John even melted part of his face with heat vision, which is silly. But whatever, comics.

What's he supposed to do, fight them off in two panels and be completely unscathed?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Now what damaged adam's reputation was how he was using his full strength against everyone and yet not a single hero was killed not even stargirl or many of less durable heroes.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ 👆 Because he's physically stronger than Power Girl and got beaten before China along with the rest of the Marvel family and was getting handled at the end while he and Power Girl and the rest of DC Earth were struggling to contain Black Adam in China. That line can't be a reference to Power Girl, since Captain Marvel is stronger than her and WWIII Black Adam was stronger than him.

Actually there has been only one comparison between cap and karen and she said she was stronger than him and he made no objection. See JSA 23 or 24.

Martian Manhunter referred to "those among us" who were stronger, faster or more powerful.

Yeah... you apparently didn't read World War III. Read it before making incorrect assertions and then relying on those incorrect assertions to render faulty conclusions that are ridiculous in and of themselves. After all, who did H/P Doomsday kill when he rampaged in the Doomsday Wars against the JLA?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Actually there has been only one comparison between cap and karen and she said she was stronger than him and he made no objection. See JSA 23 or 24.

So if you don't openly acknowledge or disagree with someone then you are "stronger."

Let me go ask my 4 year old nephew who is stronger, I'm sure no matter what he will say he is.

That's a moot point.

I don't see BA beating Thor IF Thor uses his powers and doesn't try to slug it out.

Karen was also extremely cocky. Her taking exception to Cap being the strongest and fastest person there doesn't mean she's right, even if Cap doesn't argue.

Power Girl's strong, but she's not in Billy's league.

^Geoff was pushing her up in the line at that time. In the same arc cap was koed by superman via suckerpunching and power girl beat Kal straight up although he was mind controlled by ultra-humanite. Karen is absolutely in cap's league of strength, he may be stronger than her but not by much.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Adam had prep and Isis to help him beat Lord Marvel.

She didn't beat Kal straight up. The feedback from Humanite's Thunderbolt-fueled mind control is what synched it it for her.

The gap between PG and Cap is essentially equal to the gap between Wonder Woman and Superman. She's strong enough to not get obliterated by him and likewise is strong enough to hurt him, but there's a definite strength advantage and it is significant enough to matter.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Ya... he beat the shit out of Billy under his own power, unless you think the rock weakened him... which I'm going to need to see the scan that said so (especially since Adam actually smashed the rock). He already had Billy beat when Isis took his power.

I deleted all of my scans due to my PC being reduced to a crawl, so I'll have to reupload sometime soon.

I do feel that rock played a role in Billy's defeat based on the fact that said rock was the same one responsible for Shazam's death.

Generally, it seems as if DC felt that Lord Marvel was still the same physically but just had the added benefits of being an actual wizard this time around. So Black Adam physically contending with Marvel in of itself isn't PIS or anything...but Johns was the one who quantified the amp from being inside the RoE as its Guardian as being a hundredfold more powerful. And that was a less powerful/experience Cap.

Johns does favor Black Adam over Billy, but there's usually context to his "wins" over Cap.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I deleted all of my scans due to my PC being reduced to a crawl, so I'll have to reupload sometime soon.

I do feel that rock played a role in Billy's defeat based on the fact that said rock was the same one responsible for Shazam's death.

Generally, it seems as if DC felt that Lord Marvel was still the same physically but just had the added benefits of being an actual wizard this time around. So Black Adam physically contending with Marvel in of itself isn't PIS or anything...but Johns was the one who quantified the amp from being inside the RoE as its Guardian as being a hundredfold more powerful. And that was a less powerful/experience Cap.

Johns does favor Black Adam over Billy, but there's usually context to his "wins" over Cap.

I agree, Black Adam doesn't care about amps.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
She didn't beat Kal straight up. The feedback from Humanite's Thunderbolt-fueled mind control is what synched it it for her.

The gap between PG and Cap is essentially equal to the gap between Wonder Woman and Superman. She's strong enough to not get obliterated by him and likewise is strong enough to hurt him, but there's a definite strength advantage and it is significant enough to matter.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So do you think cap is that much stronger than diana too as diana admitted that karen was AT LEAST as strong as her. The way I see it in strength
Superman>Black adam~captain marvel~wonder woman>power girl~supergirl.
The difference between diana/cap and power girl is not that big as you are indicating.

Seeing as Cap and Superman routinely stalemate or draw each other in direct comparisons of strength, yes. The gap is large enough to be a definite factor and matter.

^That's not completely right. There is two on panel showing of strength for them, in first cap added stamina of atlas to his strength and even then couldn't overpower him in POS 46. Then in action comics 768 cap was the one to shout ow in their handshake, it was just days after superman was almost dead with kryptonite poisioning. The one in Man of tomorrow 4 was off panel so we can only speculate what happened in that bout. After that it was reaveled in No Limits arc that superman was using only a small portion of his power. In superman 216 cap had to use lightning of zeus to boost his strength to catch superman's punch while Kal while weakened caught his punch and threw him away in superman/batman 4. Superman has always been stronger than cap just how much is debatable, even in silver age where black adam confessed he didn't had superman's full strength.

Originally posted by abhilegend
^That's not completely right. There is two on panel showing of strength for them, in first cap added stamina of atlas to his strength and even then couldn't overpower him in POS 46. Then in action comics 768 cap was the one to shout ow in their handshake. The one in Man of tomorrow 4 was off panel so we can only speculate what happened in that bout. After that it was reaveled in No Limits arc that superman was using only a small portion of his power. In superman 216 cap had to use lightning of zeus to boost his strength to catch superman's punch while Kal while weakened caught his punch and threw him away in superman/batman 4. Superman has always been stronger than cap just how much is debatable, even in silver age where black adam confessed he didn't had superman's full strength

Him adding the *Strength* (not Stamina, which is the primary benefit of Atlas) of Atlas to augment Hercules' strength in order to match Superman happened one time and one time only; the notion he had to stack attributes in order to match Superman has been mentioned one time and one time only. Neither could Superman overpower him, anyway, at least until the Marvel Family showed up with their power sharing making Billy weaker.

That entire comic spelled out that Cap and Superman are equals in more ways than one, so it's not a good example for you to use if you're trying to claim that Cap doesn't draw/stalemate Superman. Considering Superman got an indepth idea of the power Cap wields due to their Fusion Dance and nearly creamed himself, his statement of considering Cap to be his bonafide equal isn't just Superman being humble and nice. Add that to the fact that it's not the first time he's mentioned being evenly matched with Kal and it just further reinforces that idea.

Cap using lightning or the Power of Zeus doesn't amp his physical strength. At best, it provides additional magical damage to his fists if he charges them. Further more, like the rest of the Power of Shazam spell, it's part of a whole. His various powers all interact with each other (Speed, Stamina, Strength, Courage, Wisdom, Power). The Power of Zeus is the catalyst of the spell and is the primary component.

Superman catching his punch doesn't make him stronger than Cap, either.

In the Pre-Crisis comics, Superman would begin to win when Cap was outside of his native reality, when his power would begin to wane. Other than that, they've consistently been portrayed as peers. Superman has greater versatility and greater high end feats, but when he fights Captain Marvel, he never clearly out performs him without any kind of context.

Captain Marvel being equal to Superman in the general sense doesn't hurt or lessen or damage Superman's image in the least, but people act like it takes away from Clark or something. And it really doesn't.

^First thing first, since you think that character admission is the best way to determine power PC black adam admits he doesn't has the full strength of superman on Earth-S.
http://imageshack.us/f/835/supermanvsshazam30.jpg
So you think stalemating in handlock which is actually a skill based game with very little to strength is indicator of strength but catching of a punch is not. He was astonished of cap's power because it was magical based, why would he be impressed at all, strength:At cap's best draw, at kal's best stronger by a significant amount, speed😖lower than superman, durability:draw or lower than superman, energy:HV far surpasses shazam bolts, senses:no contest. Only wisdom of solomon is different which is not a power. Yot tell me why should superman be impressed at all! Lip service can get you only so far. Superman has called wonder woman his equal too "we may be equal in the power princess". Unless that scene from POS was retconned away, it is still relevant. Zeus' lightning temporarily boosts all physical aspects of marvels', shazam has said it himself in original Power of Shazam graphic novel. Considering he has to boost himself two times to match superman and one time weakened and exhausted superman casually caught his punch and threw him away, I don't know how he is equal to him in strength.