Annihilus (Annihilation) vs Lord Mar-Vell

Originally posted by dmills
Annihilus doesn't get that pass anymore.

If this battle comes down to who kicked Nova's ass the best -which is pathetic- then I'd have to lean towards Mar-vell. He fought the better more polished Nova Prime while casually brushing off Richies attacks and waltzing through his defenses. That, plus the Surfer and Magus feats.

I can't buy that completely because how do you explain Anni beating Quasar with ease? he literally ate him. Also Nova wasn't some neophyte after all he was a Nova Centurion for the past 3-4 decades. I mean sure he could have gelled better with World Mind but he seemed pretty in control of his motor function during the fight. Like I said before whoever wins this won't be taking it without going through a huge war.

Originally posted by Stoic
I can't buy that completely because how do you explain Anni beating Quasar with ease? he literally ate him. Also Nova wasn't some neophyte after all he was a Nova Centurion for the past 3-4 decades. I mean sure he could have gelled better with World Mind but he seemed pretty in control of his motor function during the fight. Like I said before whoever wins this won't be taking it without going through a huge war.

Quasar's bands are ineffective vs antimatter, which Annihilus is composed of iirc. That explains the way he just dug through the shielding.

In Rider's case, he was still getting acclaimated to the entire Nova Force. Prior to the first encounter between Nova and the bug, the WM was going to boost his Nova Force supply but Rich told it not to give him too much power. He was afraid of loosing control.

Increasing Nova Force supply to your bio pattern...You can't give me too much

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/picsay-1324623630.jpg

Then the fight itself. He utilized no shielding, no speed etc.

Oh I agree it'll be a good fight. I just think Mar-vell takes it.

Originally posted by dmills
Annihilus doesn't get that pass anymore.

If this battle comes down to who kicked Nova's ass the best -which is pathetic- then I'd have to lean towards Mar-vell. He fought the better more polished Nova Prime while casually brushing off Richies attacks and waltzing through his defenses. That, plus the Surfer and Magus feats.

In defense of Nova Prime though, he clearly was going all-out against Annihilus at the end (who was taxed by the Galactus Event) and Ryder wasn't sharing any of the Nova Force power with a neophyte Nova Corps. Same can't be said of his encounter with Lord Mar-Vell during Thanos Imperative.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You don't believe Annihilus could bust Surfer's board? S'pose that's reasonable.

In defense of Nova Prime though, he clearly was going all-out against Annihilus at the end (who was taxed by the Galactus Event) and Ryder wasn't sharing any of the Nova Force power with a neophyte Nova Corps. Same can't be said of his encounter with Lord Mar-Vell during Thanos Imperative.

Oh he'd bust his board, hurt him or whatever sure. I dont see him atomizing Magus though.

Going all out within the confines of his self imposed limits sure. Utilizing the full power of the Nova force all out? No way. There are several reasons for this, but he never even entertained the notion until issue 25 or so of his series.

I think he displayed a bit more all around ability vs Mar-vell imo. Mar-vell just thoroughly went through nearly everything Nova had. Speed blitz, Shields, psionic defenses, WM cut off etc. Although I suppose that could be attributed to the nature -magic- of his powers then the level of power itself.

Personally I think the Nova that fought Mar-vell in the Thanos Imperative would've done much better against Annihilus then he did in their original confrontation.

Originally posted by dmills
Quasar's bands are ineffective vs antimatter, which Annihilus is composed of iirc. That explains the way he just dug through the shielding.

I knew he killed Quasar but I didn't know how he did it, I googled the scans and found them at comicvine. He just punched through Q's shield and Quasar was desperately trying to fight him off. Looking at those scans, he MANHANDLED Quasar and Nova (Prime)? I don't think even adding Surfer, Gladiator and BRB would have saved their @ss either. Annihilus was literally eating their power. Sh|t, I'm getting scared now 😛 He may have a better chance vs Lord Mar-vell than I thought 🙁

Can anyone confirm Annihilus is composed of antimatter? Because if he isn't, he muscled through the best Quasar could do (no "weakness" exploit) and "annihilated" him.

Originally posted by zopzop
I knew he killed Quasar but I didn't know how he did it, I googled the scans and found them at comicvine. He just punched through Q's shield and Quasar was desperately trying to fight him off. Looking at those scans, he MANHANDLED Quasar and Nova (Prime)? I don't think even adding Surfer, Gladiator and BRB would have saved their @ss either. Annihilus was literally eating their power. Sh|t, I'm getting scared now 😛 He may have a better chance vs Lord Mar-vell than I thought 🙁

Can anyone confirm Annihilus is composed of antimatter? Because if he isn't, he muscled through the best Quasar could do (no "weakness" exploit) and "annihilated" him.

He was born in the negative zone. That entire universe and everything in it is antimatter.

Originally posted by dmills
He was born in the negative zone. That entire universe and everything in it is antimatter.

Then wouldn't he and his entire army have exploded as soon as they came into contact with our "positive" energy universe?

Anyway, if he exploited the Q-bands weakness (inability to affect things outside the EM Spectrum) then he's not all that. But if he muscled through the Q-band constructs of a desperate Quasar, he's a monster.

Originally posted by zopzop
I knew he killed Quasar but I didn't know how he did it, I googled the scans and found them at comicvine. He just punched through Q's shield and Quasar was desperately trying to fight him off. Looking at those scans, he MANHANDLED Quasar and Nova (Prime)? I don't think even adding Surfer, Gladiator and BRB would have saved their @ss either. Annihilus was literally eating their power. Sh|t, I'm getting scared now 😛 He may have a better chance vs Lord Mar-vell than I thought 🙁

Can anyone confirm Annihilus is composed of antimatter? Because if he isn't, he muscled through the best Quasar could do (no "weakness" exploit) and "annihilated" him.

Nope I can't find a citation anywhere that states him as being composed of anti matter. It only says that he is from an anti matter universe. It kind of doesn't make a lot of sense that he would be composed of anti matter once he entered the positive matter universe, because he would technically be in a constant volatile state. Just a guess? I'll take Dmills word for it though, because it's likely that he was written up as such in a canon book. Does it make sense? I got nothing. 🙁

Originally posted by dmills
Oh he'd bust his board, hurt him or whatever sure. I dont see him atomizing Magus though.

Originally posted by dmills
Going all out within the confines of his self imposed limits sure. Utilizing the full power of the Nova force all out? No way. There are several reasons for this, but he never even entertained the notion until issue 25 or so of his series.

Originally posted by dmills
He was born in the negative zone. That entire universe and everything in it is antimatter.

Originally posted by zopzop
Then wouldn't he and his entire army have exploded as soon as they came into contact with our "positive" energy universe?

Anyway, if he exploited the Q-bands weakness (inability to affect things outside the EM Spectrum) then he's not all that. But if he muscled through the Q-band constructs of a desperate Quasar, he's a monster.

Originally posted by Stoic
Nope I can't find a citation anywhere that states him as being composed of anti matter. It only says that he is from an anti matter universe. It kind of doesn't make a lot of sense that he would be composed of anti matter once he entered the positive matter universe, because he would technically be in a constant volatile state. Just a guess? I'll take Dmills word for it though, because it's likely that he was written up as such in a canon book. Does it make sense? I got nothing. 🙁

That was immediately the question that popped into my mind, but its comics man. You could just as easily ask "well if they're born in the negative zone, and yet aren't antimatter -or whatever- themselves, then why don't they explode in the negative zone?" Idk. Either they themselves are antimatter, or we've got some serious questions to ask on both fronts lol.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I can see Annihilus atomizing a defenseless Magus who isn't expecting to be attacked. Hell... Annihilus atomized a fighting-mad Quasar. Lord Mar-Vell didn't do that against Wendell at all. I'm not sure why you think this, but am happy to hear why. Sometimes it works like that. Most of the time, it doesn't. Nothing on-panel suggested that Annihilus pwned Quasar due to him being from the Negative Zone. All of the Annihilation Wave was from the Negative Zone. Quasar had no issue fighting their fleet prior to dying to Annihilus.

Fair enough. I suppose it depends on how high you place the Magus on the totem pole. What I saw was him display complete subjugation to Mar-vell, and a look of fear when confronted with the question as to why the avatar of death had not yet been located. I think it was clearly intended as showing us "holy shyte, this is a guy that even Adam frickin Magus fears!".

Long story short:

1) The running theme during Annihilation for Rider was fear of losing control and ending up like Garthan Saal. We consistently saw this alluded to throughout the mini, and even in his first little dance with Annihilus himself. He was going to fight,bit it was going to be under control and under his terms.

2) He consistently during DnA's run, with very few exceptions, made it very clear when he was tapping into more Nova Force. Especially for major feats ie; Ego blast, Flying through the Sphinx blasts, the end of TI etc. I suppose its possible that his fight with Annihilus was the exception though. Afterall it was Giffen that wrote that particular fight scene, not Abnett and Lanning.

3) Looking at the baseline of what every full nova force wielder has been able to do -Saal, The Sphinx and even Rider himself- I think its safe to say that had he really been digging that deep that Annihilus would've gotten his wings Clipped pretty quickly. But that me as a fanboy talking. Perhaps they watered down the NF or perhaps Annihilus was really just that powerful.

Yep. That very well could be. The anti matter thing was my take on it, bit its just that, a take.

Originally posted by dmills
Fair enough. I suppose it depends on how high you place the Magus on the totem pole. What I saw was him display complete subjugation to Mar-vell, and a look of fear when confronted with the question as to why the avatars of death had not yet been located. I think it was clearly intended as showings us "holy shyte, this is a guy that even Adam frickin Magus fears!".

... though I wouldn't mind evidence that Adam Warlock would physically stomp on Thanos. biscuits

Originally posted by dmills
or perhaps Annihilus was really just that powerful.

In all seriousness though, everything else you said makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by dmills
That was immediately the question that popped into my mind, but its comics man. You could just as easily ask "well if they're born in the negative zone, and yet aren't antimatter -or whatever- themselves, then why don't they explode in the negative zone?" Idk. Either they themselves are antimatter, or we've got some serious questions to ask on both fronts lol.

Fair enough. I suppose it depends on how high you place the Magus on the totem pole. What I saw was him display complete subjugation to Mar-vell, and a look of fear when confronted with the question as to why the avatar of death had not yet been located. I think it was clearly intended as showing us "holy shyte, this is a guy that even Adam frickin Magus fears!".

Long story short:

1) The running theme during Annihilation for Rider was fear of losing control and ending up like Garthan Saal. We consistently saw this alluded to throughout the mini, and even in his first little dance with Annihilus himself. He was going to fight,bit it was going to be under control and under his terms.

2) He consistently during DnA's run, with very few exceptions, made it very clear when he was tapping into more Nova Force. Especially for major feats ie; Ego blast, Flying through the Sphinx blasts, the end of TI etc. I suppose its possible that his fight with Annihilus was the exception though. Afterall it was Giffen that wrote that particular fight scene, not Abnett and Lanning.

3) Looking at the baseline of what every full nova force wielder has been able to do -Saal, The Sphinx and even Rider himself- I think its safe to say that had he really been digging that deep that Annihilus would've gotten his wings Clipped pretty quickly. But that me as a fanboy talking. Perhaps they watered down the NF or perhaps Annihilus was really just that powerful.

Yep. That very well could be. The anti matter thing was my take on it, bit its just that, a take.

@ODG You and Dmills made excellent points in both of your posts, but what I am questioning still, and I am truly sorry if I appear to be behind the ball, but can either of you answer this one question. If Lord Mar-Vell prior to facing the Annihilators, got blasted by Galactus even with the Q-Bands on (yep I'm putting him in Anni's shoes), and then had to face the Annihilators, would he have done so well? Before anyone answers, just recall the scope of the blast that Annihilus survived prior to his death.

Mar-Vell was fresh, Anni was spent.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Infinity War Magus made a Thanos duplicate his b1tch (a clone that literally matched the true Thanos almost equally in a drawn-out H2H fight). Subsequently, Adam Warlock physically destroyed the crap out of that Magus in an issue of Infinity Watch. Subjugation can imply physical domination but I don't think it definitively proves it. Perhaps Thanos Imperative Magus feared the Many Angled Ones backing Lord Mar-Vell and perhaps the Thanos duplicate feared the CCUs controlled by Magus...

... though I wouldn't mind evidence that Adam Warlock would physically stomp on Thanos. biscuits I can go with this. excellent

In all seriousness though, everything else you said makes perfect sense.

Well you'll be waiting on that evidence for a loooong time my friend 😂

Cool beans.

Originally posted by Stoic
@ODG You and Dmills made excellent points in both of your posts, but what I am questioning still, and I am truly sorry if I appear to be behind the ball, but can either of you answer this one question. If Lord Mar-Vell prior to facing the Annihilators, got blasted by Galactus even with the Q-Bands on (yep I'm putting him in Anni's shoes), and then had to face the Annihilators, would he have done so well? Before anyone answers, just recall the scope of the blast that Annihilus survived prior to his death.

Mar-Vell was fresh, Anni was spent.

So basically you're asking what would happen if Mar-vell and Annihilus had switched places, he then takes the Galactus blast, but then instead of only fighting Nova, he fights all of the Annihilators?

Originally posted by Stoic
If Lord Mar-Vell prior to facing the Annihilators, got blasted by Galactus even with the Q-Bands on (yep I'm putting him in Anni's shoes), and then had to face the Annihilators, would he have done so well? Before anyone answers, just recall the scope of the blast that Annihilus survived prior to his death.

Mar-Vell was fresh, Anni was spent.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I think Mar-vell would have survived it no problem. The reason being it took an actual abstract , Death, to put him and his masters down. And even then Thanos said they would reform (even though it would take eons). The blast dwarfed Galactus' and instead of wiping a galaxy clean, it swept the Cancervese clean. It was so powerful it even crept into 616 reality and wiped out the Galactus Engine that was pwning a crapload of cosmics (at least 6 Celestials, Galactus, Teneberous, and Aegis).

Originally posted by zopzop
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I think Mar-vell would have survived it no problem. The reason being it took an actual abstract , Death, to put him and his masters down. And even then Thanos said they would reform (even though it would take eons). The blast dwarfed Galactus' and instead of wiping a galaxy clean, it swept the Cancervese clean. It was so powerful it even crept into 616 reality and wiped out the Galactus Engine that was pwning a crapload of cosmics (at least 6 Celestials, Galactus, Teneberous, and Aegis).

I love what you just wrote. There's just one tiny problem. How on Earth did Nova, Starlord and Thanos survive a blast like that?

I thought it was more of a symbolic, metaphysical type deal then an actual blast of concussive force and heat etc. Death came to exist in the cancerverse, killed the avatars of the many angled ones -Mar-vell- thus wiping out the magic of the many angled ones or some such.

Originally posted by dmills
So basically you're asking what would happen if Mar-vell and Annihilus had switched places, he then takes the Galactus blast, but then instead of only fighting Nova, he fights all of the Annihilators?

No. Not fight the Annihilators, but have to fight Nova Prime in a spent condition. I have my doubts that he would have shined as well as he did in a fresh unhurt state.

Originally posted by dmills
I love what you just wrote. There's just one tiny problem. How on Earth did Nova, Starlord and Thanos survive a blast like that? I thought it was more of a symbolic, metaphysical type deal then an actual blast of concussive force and heat etc. Death came to exist in the cancerverse, killed the avatars of the many angled ones -Mar-vell- thus wiping out the magic of the many angled ones or some such.

She could have protected them? She must have had an insane hatred toward the Many Angled Ones for d|cking her over in that universe. Remember she saved Starfox during the IG affair too. But I don't know 🙂

You have to remember that the blast was so powerful, even though it originated in another universe, Medusa's lieutenant in 616 reality said the readings were off the scales (didn't he call it "an incoming catastrophic event"?). So it was definitely a "real" blast.

Originally posted by Stoic
No. Not fight the Annihilators, but have to fight Nova Prime in a spent condition. I have my doubts that he would have shined as well as he did in a fresh unhurt state.

Hmmm. Yes, because if you remember the denizens of the cancerverse had that insane damage soak and regen capacity which Annihilus didn't have the luxury of. Add to that him being fueled and protected by the Qbands and this could get ugly for Rider pretty quickly. As in I don't think he'd live through it kind of ugly.

Originally posted by zopzop
She could have protected them? She must have had an insane hatred toward the Many Angled Ones for d|cking her over in that universe. Remember she saved Starfox during the IG affair too. But I don't know 🙂

You have to remember that the blast was so powerful, even though it originated in another universe, Medusa's lieutenant in 616 reality said the readings were off the scales (didn't he call it "an incoming catastrophic event"?). So it was definitely a "real" blast.

You're right. Good call.