Originally posted by OneDumbG0
How many times are you going to ignore us correcting you? Depowered Owen was mind-controlled by Puppet Master. Depowered Owen also got knocked out by Klaw. Nobody gives two sh1ts about a depowered Owen, much less a depowered mind-controlled one.Once Lord Mar-Vell has matter manipulation feats that clearly surpass Owens' from Dark Avengers, he can possibly win the way Sentry did with straight up greater raw ability in matter manipulation. Once Lord Mar-Vell has power that is at least on par with post-retcon Beyonder, then he could possibly win that way also. Obviously, neither apply here.
And your completely incorrect recollection of post-retcon Molecule Man's fight history doesn't change that. And yes, I'll characterize your recollection as "incorrect" until you fully admit the context at play.
Even assuming you are correct, that he was "depowered" in his first two fights. He "powered up" in his third and never lost it. So what happened during his fourth and final fight? He got his ass kicked.
The "depowered" arguement doesn't even make sense in his first fight. Even if he could "only" affect non organic molecules at that time, Klaw isn't organic! According to you, MM should have owned him. Yet he got his ass kicked by him and was almost killed.
There is no explanation how Owen was "powered up" during his third fight and no explanation as to how he lost this miraculous power up. Stated on panel post retcon MM only had a fraction of his power, the tiny bit he hid in Marsha before he formed a full Cube Being with the Beyonder.
If anything, post retcon MM's third fight is PISS (how is Owen with a fraction of the power he originally had a match for a FULL Cube Being?). Since EVERY OTHER FIGHT post retcon resulted in a humiliating LOSS.
Originally posted by zopzop
Even assuming you are correct, that he was "depowered" in his first two fights. He "powered up" in his third and never lost it. So what happened during his fourth and final fight? He got his ass kicked.The "depowered" arguement doesn't even make sense in his first fight. Even if he could "only" affect non organic molecules at that time, Klaw isn't organic! According to you, MM should have owned him. Yet he got his ass kicked by him and was almost killed.
There is no explanation how Owen was "powered up" during his third fight and no explanation as to how he lost this miraculous power up. Stated on panel post retcon MM only had a fraction of his power, the tiny bit he hid in Marsha before he formed a full Cube Being with the Beyonder.
If anything, post retcon MM's third fight is PISS (how is Owen with a fraction of the power he originally had a match for a FULL Cube Being?). Since EVERY OTHER FIGHT post retcon resulted in a humiliating LOSS.
The depowered argument does make sense, as Klaw is made of pure sound. ie, not molecules, energy. And when he's back at his previous limits, he has limited energy manipulation skill, thus why he couldn't own Klaw.
The explanation was the time since Marsha left him, he spent time practising his power and developing it further.
" For months, he's explored the potential of his powers over reality itself "
Which he later restated during his fight w/ The Beyonder.
And in fact, the reason he can surpasss full cube beings was also mentioned, Kubik saying that it was Owen's mortal nature that allowed him greater potentials than fully realised cube beings.
The reason he was more limited in Dark Avengers, is pretty much purely down to the fact that he was in a pretty bad mental state, as was made clear from the fact he was literally creating multiple avatars for his subconcious.
And either way, he was still able to explode Sentry with no effort at all, and seeing as mar-vell has no matter manipulation feats or anything of the sort to suggest he'd survive/ be immune to such a tactic.
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
The depowered argument does make sense, as Klaw is made of pure sound. ie, not molecules, energy. And when he's back at his previous limits, he has limited energy manipulation skill, thus why he couldn't own Klaw.The explanation was the time since Marsha left him, he spent time practising his power and developing it further.
" For months, he's explored the potential of his powers over reality itself "Which he later restated during his fight w/ The Beyonder.
And in fact, the reason he can surpasss full cube beings was also mentioned, Kubik saying that it was Owen's mortal nature that allowed him greater potentials than fully realised cube beings.
The reason he was more limited in Dark Avengers, is pretty much purely down to the fact that he was in a pretty bad mental state, as was made clear from the fact he was literally creating multiple avatars for his subconcious.
And either way, he was still able to explode Sentry with no effort at all, and seeing as mar-vell has no matter manipulation feats or anything of the sort to suggest he'd survive/ be immune to such a tactic.
Yeah, and? So 3 out of his 4 appearances his "mental state" screwed him over? Ok assuming this is true, Lord Mar-vell has a 75% chance to crush Owen like Klaw, Sentry, and Aaron did. I like those odds.
And exploding Sentry? Lord Mar-vell and his Masters were taken out by an Abstract, Death, in a blast so powerful it annihilated the Cancerverse and spilled over to 616 reality and destroyed the Galactus Engine that was owning multiple Celestials/Galactus/Teneberous/Aegis. And still they weren't dead. It would just take eons for them to reform. There is no comparison.
Lord Mar-vell wins.
Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah, and? So 3 out of his 4 appearances his "mental state" screwed him over? Ok assuming this is true, Lord Mar-vell has a 75% chance to crush Owen like Klaw, Sentry, and Aaron did. I like those odds.And exploding Sentry? Lord Mar-vell and his Masters were taken out by an Abstract, Death, in a blast so powerful it annihilated the Cancerverse and spilled over to 616 reality and destroyed the Galactus Engine that was owning multiple Celestials/Galactus/Teneberous/Aegis. And still they weren't dead. It would just take eons for them to reform. There is no comparison.
Lord Mar-vell wins.
No, the first two (Klaw/ The Watcher) the fact he had just got his power back and at that point (prior to pushing back his limits and expanding his power) he was limited in what he could do. Hell, for half the Klaw fight he didn't have any powers.
And you're inexplicably grouping Lord Mar-vell with the exponentially more powerful Many Angled ones, Mar-vell was in no way recovering from that, seeing as he was caused to die due to the fact Death was finally able to "visit him" as should have happened when he was dying of cancer. Thanos specified that it was only the "undying ones around" them who would reconstitute, not Mar-vell himself.
Tbf, even if Owen can't directly matter manipulate Mar-vell to death (though Mar-vell has done nothing which would imply his immunity), nothing Mar-vell did would show him capable of escaping inprisonment inside an adamantium block or something of that style. Owen's options to immobilise Mar-vell are unbelievably numerous, if even necessary, as at his full power Owen could just blast Mar-vell into nothing, or tear him apart.
People fail to realize that the post retcon Molecule Man is above people like Silver Surfer, Lord Mar-Vell, Thanos and hell, even Galactus.
He does not have to have the mental state to defeat them. Maybe there would be a way for these characters to outsmart them, yeah - something like that would happen in a comic book fight, but that's not how it's down in a forum-fight. We don't simply let a character outsmart another, because then Lex Luthor would always defeat Superman and Iron Man would never lose to the Hulk, simply because they would have prep or something.
The overall power level plays an important part in battles and Molecule Man stands so much above Lord Mar-Vell, it's not even funny anymore.
You all can deny it as much as you want, especially because that instantly downgrades Thanos as well and yes, Molecule Man would annihilate Thanos EASILY ...
... Molecule Man would still beat Lord Mar-Vell senseless.
It was never shown that Lord Mar-Vell could come up with a way to get past the molecule manipulation on such a high scale.
Molecule Man lost his fast after the retcon, because - as already stated - he was depowered from time to time and during the Dark Avengers he did not have the intention to kill anyone besides the Sentry and he managed to do that easily. He managed to kill the Sentry, someone with insane superhuman durability and invulnerability - with sheer easy. He killed him twice and brought him back, until for the third time Sentry realized what was happening and defeated the Molecule Man with raw, powerful molecule manipulation.
Lord Mar-Vell does not have such luxury. He is not immortal and can keep returning from dead, because he doesn't wish to stay dead and Lord Mar-Vell does not have the luxury of having powerful molecule manipulation.
Everything Lord Mar-Vell has is fairly powerful energy projection and his magic tricks, which won't do him any good against someone like the Molecule Man.
^ 👆
Originally posted by zopzopUnderstand context and stop relying on overgeneralities. It's undeniable that when not depowered, Molecule Man doesn't just manipulate organic and inorganic molecules, he also manipulates energy and can apparently even time travel.
Even assuming you are correct, that he was "depowered" in his first two fights. He "powered up" in his third and never lost it. So what happened during his fourth and final fight? He got his ass kicked.The "depowered" arguement doesn't even make sense in his first fight. Even if he could "only" affect non organic molecules at that time, Klaw isn't organic! According to you, MM should have owned him. Yet he got his ass kicked by him and was almost killed.
There is no explanation how Owen was "powered up" during his third fight and no explanation as to how he lost this miraculous power up. Stated on panel post retcon MM only had a fraction of his power, the tiny bit he hid in Marsha before he formed a full Cube Being with the Beyonder.
If anything, post retcon MM's third fight is PISS (how is Owen with a fraction of the power he originally had a match for a FULL Cube Being?). Since EVERY OTHER FIGHT post retcon resulted in a humiliating LOSS.
If anything, you're just lowballing Molecule Man and ignoring his abilities by acting like a depowered and mindcontrolled Molecule Man is the same thing.
I'm done correcting your mistakes discussing Molecule Man with you.
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish👆
No, the first two (Klaw/ The Watcher) the fact he had just got his power back and at that point (prior to pushing back his limits and expanding his power) he was limited in what he could do. Hell, for half the Klaw fight he didn't have any powers.And you're inexplicably grouping Lord Mar-vell with the exponentially more powerful Many Angled ones, Mar-vell was in no way recovering from that, seeing as he was caused to die due to the fact Death was finally able to "visit him" as should have happened when he was dying of cancer. Thanos specified that it was only the "undying ones around" them who would reconstitute, not Mar-vell himself.
Tbf, even if Owen can't directly matter manipulate Mar-vell to death (though Mar-vell has done nothing which would imply his immunity), nothing Mar-vell did would show him capable of escaping inprisonment inside an adamantium block or something of that style. Owen's options to immobilise Mar-vell are unbelievably numerous, if even necessary, as at his full power Owen could just blast Mar-vell into nothing, or tear him apart.
To be fair, Lord Mar-Vell has teleported. So he should be able to escape a block of adamantium.
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
The depowered argument does make sense, as Klaw is made of pure sound. ie, not molecules, energy. And when he's back at his previous limits, he has limited energy manipulation skill, thus why he couldn't own Klaw.The explanation was the time since Marsha left him, he spent time practising his power and developing it further.
" For months, he's explored the potential of his powers over reality itself "Which he later restated during his fight w/ The Beyonder.
And in fact, the reason he can surpasss full cube beings was also mentioned, Kubik saying that it was Owen's mortal nature that allowed him greater potentials than fully realised cube beings.
The reason he was more limited in Dark Avengers, is pretty much purely down to the fact that he was in a pretty bad mental state, as was made clear from the fact he was literally creating multiple avatars for his subconcious.
And either way, he was still able to explode Sentry with no effort at all, and seeing as mar-vell has no matter manipulation feats or anything of the sort to suggest he'd survive/ be immune to such a tactic.
I love the Mar-vell franchise, but Owen Reece,
the real Molecule Man that battled Beyonder,
annihilates LM.
In that fight, MM was even speedblitzin Beyonder,
while unleashing reality bending blasts at em.
The affects of their fight was felt beyond the prime Multiverse.
Forget it, that Owen Reece, is a true monster.
Like the LT said, "one of the most powerful beings in all creation"
Like Owen said sitting in his couch, "ripping Galaxies apart, that's easy stuff" ...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ 👆 Understand context and stop relying on overgeneralities. It's undeniable that when not depowered, Molecule Man doesn't just manipulate organic and inorganic molecules, he also manipulates energy and can apparently even time travel.If anything, you're just lowballing Molecule Man and ignoring his abilities by acting like a depowered and mindcontrolled Molecule Man is the same thing.
I'm done
correcting your mistakesdiscussing Molecule Man with you. 👆To be fair, Lord Mar-Vell has teleported. So he should be able to escape a block of adamantium.
Then explain how he miraculously lost his "power up" in between the time he fought Beyonder and Sentry? Face it, 75% of the time, post retcon, he was a joke. And a sad one at that. ONE good showing out of 4 total means the ONE good showing was the fluke.
^ Ignoring context like a desperate troll. Because you still can't over the fact that your lies about Molecule Man losing to Klaw and Aron were exposed. Yeah: lies. Nobody holds depowered Hulk, depowered Superman, or depowered Wolverine's losses against them. Nobody. You love them though, because you've got nothing else up your sleeve other than irrelevant sh1t. As I said, no point in discussing it further with you; you still haven't gotten over the fact that numerous posters called you out on your garbage..
Originally posted by Mr Master👆
👆I love the Mar-vell franchise, but Owen Reece,
the real Molecule Man that battled Beyonder,
annihilates LM.In that fight, MM was even speedblitzin Beyonder,
while unleashing reality bending blasts at em.
The affects of their fight was felt beyond the prime Multiverse.Forget it, that Owen Reece, is a true monster.
Like the LT said, "one of the most powerful beings in all creation"
Like Owen said sitting in his couch, "ripping Galaxies apart, that's easy stuff" ...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Ignoring context like a desperate troll. Because you still can't over the fact that your lies about Molecule Man losing to Klaw and Aron were exposed. Yeah: lies. Nobody holds depowered Hulk, depowered Superman, or depowered Wolverine's losses against them. Nobody. You love them though, because you've got nothing else up your sleeve other than irrelevant sh1t. As I said, no point in discussing it further with you; you still haven't gotten over the fact that numerous posters called you out on your garbage.. 👆
He wasn't "depowered" at all, don't you get it? He stored a FRACTION of his power with Marsha right before he merged with Beyonder to form a full Cube. When he came back and explained everything to Marsha, he took back the fragement of his power he had hidden within her. Hence, he only reclaimed the FRACTION of his original post retcon power he had smuggled in Marsha.
So you have Owen with a fraction of a fraction of his post retcon power vs Klaw, which resulted in a loss and nearly killed him.
You have him being taken over by Puppet Master then losing to Aaron the Rogue Watcher in a humiliating fashion.
Then you have him MIRACULOUSLY beating an almost FULL Cube Being (missing only the sliver of the power MM didn't bring into the Cube when he formed Kosmos with the Beyonder) with the fragment of a Cube's power he had. He didn't even have the half or so Cube power he did before he merged with the post retcon Beyonder!
Finally you have him, MIRACULOUSLY forgetting his "power up" and then getting annihilated by Sentry.
Out of those four fights, ONE stands out as out of the norm for post retcon MM. Care to guess which one it was?
Originally posted by zopzopThen explain how he miraculously lost his "power up" in between
the time he fought Beyonder and Sentry?
Owen was unstoppable in Dark Avengers, he killed many heroes,
disintegrated the battle fleet assisting the heroes,
mind raped Norman (via molecules) & re-arranged a section of the country,
created his own copies of Mephisto, Enchantress, Beyonder, & Dormy
shattered Sentry's molecules 3 separate times (owned)
and finally brought everyone back to life, & fixed the countryside with a thought.
Sentry (after re-generating for the 3rd time) caught Owen off-guard
while Owen was stopping a missile shot at him from a plane he thought was a nuke.
While Sentry has definitely developed an upgrade,
he still won via a stipulation cause while Owen was focused on him
he was getting owned.
That and the fact that Owen, wanted to fail according to the friends he created,
who were an image of his sub-conscious.
Originally posted by zopzopFace it, 75% of the time, post retcon, he was a joke.
And a sad one at that.ONE good showing out of 4 total means the ONE good showing
was the fluke.
Vs Klaw:
He was de-powered and limited
(could not control space/time, or even organic molecules)
and still owned Klaw,
but then jobbed and got surprised by Klaw
who transmitted his sound effect via the ground beneath Owen.
vs. Aaron:
Still de-powered, while taking a stroll in his compound he was
unknowingly mind controlled by Puppet Master.
Puppet Master had Owen face Aaron.
Owen was clowning around the entire fight, and jobbing into a loss,
even telling Aaron his weakness concerning in-organic molecules,
even waiting for Aaron to attack to show off by re-directing what
Aaron threw at em.
For jobbing and waiting like an idiot for Aaron to attack he lost.
vs post Beyonder:
Finally no bull shit and the real Molecule Man is seen.
A monster!
Owen was developing his power for months while thrusting back his limitations,
his potential power-level as post-retcon Molecule Man was realized.
The incredible thing is, that at the end Kubik said that even this level
was not as far as Owen could go due to his human nature which allows
him to surpass basic omnipotence like the one Kubik/Kosmos have.
Originally posted by Enzeru
People fail to realize that the post retcon Molecule Man is above people like Silver Surfer, Lord Mar-Vell, Thanos and hell, even Galactus.He does not have to have the mental state to defeat them. Maybe there would be a way for these characters to outsmart them, yeah - something like that would happen in a comic book fight, but that's not how it's down in a forum-fight. We don't simply let a character outsmart another, because then Lex Luthor would always defeat Superman and Iron Man would never lose to the Hulk, simply because they would have prep or something.
The overall power level plays an important part in battles and Molecule Man stands so much above Lord Mar-Vell, it's not even funny anymore.
You all can deny it as much as you want, especially because that instantly downgrades Thanos as well and yes, Molecule Man would annihilate Thanos EASILY ...
... Molecule Man would still beat Lord Mar-Vell senseless.It was never shown that Lord Mar-Vell could come up with a way to get past the molecule manipulation on such a high scale.
Molecule Man lost his fast after the retcon, because - as already stated - he was depowered from time to time and during the Dark Avengers he did not have the intention to kill anyone besides the Sentry and he managed to do that easily. He managed to kill the Sentry, someone with insane superhuman durability and invulnerability - with sheer easy. He killed him twice and brought him back, until for the third time Sentry realized what was happening and defeated the Molecule Man with raw, powerful molecule manipulation.Lord Mar-Vell does not have such luxury. He is not immortal and can keep returning from dead, because he doesn't wish to stay dead and Lord Mar-Vell does not have the luxury of having powerful molecule manipulation.
Everything Lord Mar-Vell has is fairly powerful energy projection and his magic tricks, which won't do him any good against someone like the Molecule Man.
👆
Lets be honest here people; in a forum fight, where there is no PIS, Lord Mar-vell has no chance against Owen...
Owen 10/10 without effort...
Originally posted by Mr Master
It didn't seem like he miraculously lost his "power up" ...
It seemed like Sentry was the one that got the miraculous "power up" 🙂Owen was unstoppable in Dark Avengers, he killed many heroes,
disintegrated the battle fleet assisting the heroes,
mind raped Norman (via molecules) & re-arranged a section of the country,
created his own copies of Mephisto, Enchantress, Beyonder, & Dormy
shattered Sentry's molecules 3 separate times (owned)
and finally brought everyone back to life, & fixed the countryside with a thought.Sentry (after re-generating for the 3rd time) caught Owen off-guard
while Owen was stopping a missile shot at him from a plane he thought was a nuke.While Sentry has definitely developed an upgrade,
he still won via a stipulation cause while Owen was focused on him
he was getting owned.That and the fact that Owen, wanted to fail according to the friends he created,
who were an image of his sub-conscious.Hm ... I have to disagree. Especially since you're overlooking the context of those incidents where Owen lost.
Vs Klaw:
He was de-powered and limited
(could not control space/time, or even organic molecules)
and still owned Klaw,
but then jobbed and got surprised by Klaw
who transmitted his sound effect via the ground beneath Owen.vs. Aaron:
Still de-powered, while taking a stroll in his compound he was
unknowingly mind controlled by Puppet Master.
Puppet Master had Owen face Aaron.
Owen was clowning around the entire fight, and jobbing into a loss,
even telling Aaron his weakness concerning in-organic molecules,
even waiting for Aaron to attack to show off by re-directing what
Aaron threw at em.
For jobbing and waiting like an idiot for Aaron to attack he lost.vs post Beyonder:
Finally no bull shit and the real Molecule Man is seen.
A monster!
Owen was developing his power for months while thrusting back his limitations,
his potential power-level as post-retcon Molecule Man was realized.The incredible thing is, that at the end Kubik said that even this level
was not as far as Owen could go due to his human nature which allows
him to surpass basic omnipotence like the one Kubik/Kosmos have.
Mr. M, my friend, you ignored the most important part of my post. The reason why he wasn't "depowered" was because he NEVER had his full post retcon power to begin with. He only had the sliver he hid, then reclaimed, inside Marsha. How does one explain his "power up" and win vs Beyonder (an almost FULL Cube Being) then subsequent depowerment and humiliation vs Sentry? If anything his fight with Sentry is consistent with his loses vs Klaw and Aaron. His fight vs the Beyonder is the anomaly.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurderLets be honest here people; in a forum fight,
where there is no PIS, Lord Mar-vell has no chance against Owen...Owen 10/10 without effort...
I just went back flipped a few pages and it's official.