Israeli girls afraid to walk to school because of ultra-orthodox threats

Started by King Kandy2 pages

Israeli girls afraid to walk to school because of ultra-orthodox threats

(AP) BEIT SHEMESH, Israel - A shy 8-year-old schoolgirl has unwittingly found herself on the front line of Israel's latest religious war.
Naama Margolese is a ponytailed, bespectacled second-grader who is afraid of walking to her religious Jewish girls school for fear of ultra-Orthodox extremists who have spat on her and called her a whore for dressing "immodestly."

Her plight has drawn new attention to the simmering issue of religious coercion in Israel, and the increasing brazenness of extremists in the insular ultra-Orthodox Jewish community.

"When I walk to school in the morning I used to get a tummy ache because I was so scared ... that they were going to stand and start yelling and spitting," the pale, blue-eyed girl said softly in an interview with The Associated Press Monday. "They were scary. They don't want us to go to the school."

The girls school that Naama attends in the city of Beit Shemesh, to the west of Jerusalem, is on the border between an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood and a community of modern Orthodox Jewish residents, many of them American immigrants.

The ultra-Orthodox consider the school, which moved to its present site at the beginning of the school year, an encroachment on their territory. Dozens of black-hatted men jeer and physically accost the girls almost daily, claiming their very presence is a provocation.

Beit Shemesh has long experienced friction between the ultra-Orthodox, who make up about half the city's population, and other residents. And residents say the attacks at the girls' school, attended by about 400 students, have been going on for months. Last week, after a local TV channel reported about the school and interviewed Naama's family, a national uproar ensued.

The televised images of Naama sobbing as she walked to school shocked many Israelis, elicited statements of outrage from the country's leadership, sparked a Facebook page with nearly 10,000 followers dedicated to "protecting little Naama" and a demonstration was held Tuesday evening in her honor. As the case has attracted attention, extremists have heckled and thrown eggs and rocks at journalists descending on town.

"Who's afraid of an 8-year-old student?" said Sunday's main headline in the leading Yediot Ahronot daily.

Beit Shemesh's growing ultra-Orthodox population has erected street signs calling for the separation of sexes on the sidewalks, dispatched "modesty patrols" to enforce a chaste female appearance and hurled stones at offenders and outsiders. Walls of the neighborhood are plastered with signs exhorting women to dress modestly in closed-necked, long-sleeved blouses and long skirts.

Naama's case has been especially shocking because of her young age and because she attends a religious school and dresses with long sleeves and a skirt. Extremists, however, consider even that outfit, standard in mainstream Jewish religious schools, to be immodest.

"This is a phenomenon that contradicts Jewish tradition and the spirit of the Bible," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Tuesday evening, "with one of the most central and important among them being: Love your neighbor as yourself,"

Thousands of secular and religious Jews attended Tuesday evening's demonstration.

Protesters held signs reading, "Free Israel from religious coercion," and "Stop Israel from becoming Iran."

The abuse and segregation of women in Israel in ultra-Orthodox areas is nothing new, and critics accuse the government of turning a blind eye.

The ultra-Orthodox are perennial king-makers in Israeli coalition politics — two such parties serve as key members of the ruling coalition. They receive generous government subsidies, and police have traditionally been reluctant to enter their communities.

The ultra-Orthodox Jews make up 10 percent of Israel's population. In the past, they have generally confined their strict lifestyle to their own neighborhoods. But they have become increasingly aggressive in trying to impose their ways on others, as their population has grown and spread to new areas.

"It is clear that Israeli society is faced with a challenge that I am not sure it can handle," said Menachem Friedman, a professor emeritus of Bar Ilan University and expert on the ultra-Orthodox, "a challenge that is no less and no more than an existential challenge."

Most of Israel's secular majority, in cities like Tel Aviv and Haifa, is not directly affected, but in a few places like Beit Shemesh — a city of 100,000 people that include ultra-Orthodox, modern Orthodox and secular Jews — tensions have erupted into the open.

At the protest, Israeli opposition leader Tzipi Livni said, "It's not just Beit Shemesh and not just gender segregation, it's all the extremist elements that are rearing their heads and are trying to impose their world view on us."

Last week, a young Israeli woman caused a nationwide uproar when she refused a religious man's order to move to the back of a bus.

In Beit Shemesh, parents in Naama's school take turns escorting their daughters into school property to protect them. The parents, too, have been cursed and spat upon.

Hadassa Margolese, Naama's 30-year-old Chicago-born mother, an Orthodox Jew who covers her hair and wears long sleeves and a long skirt, says, "It shouldn't matter what I look like. Someone should be allowed to walk around in sleeveless shirts and pants and not be harassed."

City spokesman Matityahu Rosenzweig condemned the violence but said it is the work of a small minority and has been taken out of proportion. "Every society has its fringes, and the police should take action on this," he said.

For Margolese, the recent clashes — and the price of exposing her young daughter — boil down to a fight over her very home.

"They want to push us out of Beit Shemesh. They want to take over the city," said Margolese.

"Many people have asked me if I intend to leave," Margolese said at the rally Tuesday evening, "and my answer is absolutely not."

So because a 8-year old dressed "immodestly", those most righteous of Jews, the orthodox, decided to send their "modesty patrols" to go throw rocks at her and try and scare her out of going to school.

I swear, before people target Sharia, we should look at the stuff being done by our "allies".

Read about this a week or so back.

Will this get any attention on the major news outlets? Perhaps, but as everyone knows Israel is a beacon of light and hope in the Middle East and shame on anyone who thinks different.

Also lol @ Israel still being in the Rosa Park phase.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So because a 8-year old dressed "immodestly", those most righteous of Jews, the orthodox, decided to send their "modesty patrols" to go throw rocks at her and try and scare her out of going to school.

I swear, before people target Sharia, we should look at the stuff being done by our "allies".

What always amazes/saddens me about things like this is how the "religious" utterly fail to see how their actions contradict their professed faith. This is religionism pretty much at its worst.

"The essence of Judaism is this: what you don't like, don't do to anyone else. Everything else written is commentary."
-- Rabbi Hillel

Originally posted by Mindship
What always amazes/saddens me about things like this is how the "religious" utterly fail to see how their actions contradict the very essence of their professed faith. This is religionism pretty much at its worst.

Have you actually read the Old Testament?

That shit is crazy. The fact Israelis invented Krav Maga makes perfect sense if you consider they were supposedly made in the image of a Celestial War Criminal.

Originally posted by Mindship
What always amazes/saddens me about things like this is how the "religious" utterly fail to see how their actions contradict their professed faith. This is religionism pretty much at its worst.

"The essence of Judaism is this: what you don't like, don't do to anyone else. Everything else written is commentary."
-- Rabbi Hillel


But they think that they would approve of getting stoned if they were in her situation. These people are in another dimension.

The Israeli government and most Israelis have issues with these ultra-clowns.

They insist Israel bend to their wishes, yet refuse to serve in the military and avoid paying taxes.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Have you actually read the Old Testament?

That shit is crazy. The fact Israelis invented Krav Maga makes perfect sense if you consider they were supposedly made in the image of a Celestial War Criminal.

Originally posted by King Kandy
These people are in another dimension.

Hey, where else you gonna find a Celestial War Criminal?

Pity the religionist, that he thinks he does God's work.

Originally posted by Robtard
The Israeli government and most Israelis have issues with these ultra-clowns.

They insist Israel bend to their wishes, yet refuse to serve in the military and avoid paying taxes.


I don't understand how they put up with these guys going to Yeshiva on government money while not doing anything to support the country. Every sane Israeli should get active and give these nuts a boot.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't understand how they put up with these guys going to Yeshiva on government money while not doing anything to support the country. Every sane Israeli should get active and give these nuts a boot.

From what I was told (by Israelis), they have shit-loads of money and support from Jewish groups in the US, that gives them political pull.

Originally posted by Mindship
What always amazes/saddens me about things like this is how the "religious" utterly fail to see how their actions contradict their professed faith.

Except that they don't contradict their religion.

The book is not the religion. The beliefs of the people are.

This is a problem I see with a lot of people, mostly atheists but really anyone who is talking about a religion other than their own. You don't get to decide what a religion (or more commonly a particular sect of a religion) believes, the people practicing it do. If everyone in this sect or the relevant leaders of it say girls should be stoned to death for the way they dress and call it their religion then that is the religion. It's unfortunate and it doesn't tell you much about the superset of the faith (in this case Judaism) but that's how it works.

It also tends to forget the often elaborate justifications that people have for beliefs that seem obviously contradictory. The most dramatic example I've heard of is that while a few cannibalistic societies have been found there are supposedly no known cannibalistic cultures. All of them believe that the people they eat are secret witches or somesuch. Similarly the people attacking this girl may feel her violation of custom puts her outside the protections of their religious law.

The point being: they're assholes but not arbitarily so.

Would it be too authoritarian of the government to make these people stop?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Except that they don't contradict their religion.

The book is not the religion. The beliefs of the people are.

This is a problem I see with a lot of people, mostly atheists but really anyone who is talking about a religion other than their own. You don't get to decide what a religion (or more commonly a particular sect of a religion) believes, the people practicing it do. If everyone in this sect or the relevant leaders of it say girls should be stoned to death for the way they dress and call it their religion then that is the religion. It's unfortunate and it doesn't tell you much about the superset of the faith (in this case Judaism) but that's how it works.

It also tends to forget the often elaborate justifications that people have for beliefs that seem obviously contradictory. The most dramatic example I've heard of is that while a few cannibalistic societies have been found there are supposedly no known cannibalistic cultures. All of them believe that the people they eat are secret witches or somesuch. Similarly the people attacking this girl may feel her violation of custom puts her outside the protections of their religious law.

The point being: they're assholes but not arbitarily so.

Would it be too authoritarian of the government to make these people stop?


James Rachels discussed the shortcomings of Cultural Relativism and argued that at their core moral notions are universal across all known cultures and the differences in practices and norms stems from different perspectives and standards.

Additionally, Montaigne's essay On Cannibals describes how in a South American (or Caribbean, I can't remember) tribe cannibalism was seen not so much as murder and turning a person into food but rather a form of respect to your defeated enemy, by eating them you showed you desired their strength and all too likely his relatives would come and kill you and eat you to take your strength and regain the strength of their dead relative. Montaigne seemed to think that the cannibals far from disrespecting human life simply had a different way or respecting it that most cultures would find barbaric or disgusting.

Also, as a sidenote I love the part of the essay where a cannibal taken to France asks the French why the king (at that time a child was ruling France) is in charge and not the big, tall, strong soldiers who protected him and also asked why the poor people who lived in gutters didn't set fire to the homes of the rich. He just couldn't understand European social contract.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Except that they don't contradict their religion.

The book is not the religion. The beliefs of the people are.

This is a problem I see with a lot of people, mostly atheists but really anyone who is talking about a religion other than their own. You don't get to decide what a religion (or more commonly a particular sect of a religion) believes, the people practicing it do. If everyone in this sect or the relevant leaders of it say girls should be stoned to death for the way they dress and call it their religion then that is the religion. It's unfortunate and it doesn't tell you much about the superset of the faith (in this case Judaism) but that's how it works.

The point being: they're assholes but not arbitarily so.


I disagree. We're talking basic human decency. That was the whole point of Rabbi Hillel's statement (I am Jewish, btw). And these religionists fail miserably.

Originally posted by Mindship
I disagree.

Disagree with what?

Originally posted by Mindship
And these guys are being rectal orifices because they think their interpretation of what it means to be Jewish makes them better than everyone else, even other Jews like myself (hell, they wouldn't even consider me being Jewish).

Yes, I said that.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Disagree with what?
This...
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
...they don't contradict their religion.
To treat someone -- a child, yet -- with such disdain...this is not what Judaism is about. Netanyahu even mentions this in the article. I agree with that sentiment, with that of Hillel. IMO, the truly pious and reverent (and they don't have to be Jewish) are above this behavior.

Dude, these guys are considered shameful most of all in the eyes of other Jews. These Orthodox parasites who literally do nothing for a living other than judge other Jews and made everyone miserable need to be kicked out of the Knesset and be forced to work for a living like every other member of society.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Dude, these guys are considered shameful most of all in the eyes of other Jews. These Orthodox parasites who literally do nothing for a living other than judge other Jews and made everyone miserable need to be kicked out of the Knesset and be forced to work for a living like every other member of society.

ie the Jew-version of the Phelps.

Originally posted by Mindship
This...To treat someone -- a child, yet -- with such disdain...this is not what Judaism is about.

There's no such thing as Judaism.

They happen to be part of a different sect. You don't define its beliefs, the believers do.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There's no such thing as Judaism.
I have no idea where you are with this.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Dude, these guys are considered shameful most of all in the eyes of other Jews. These Orthodox parasites who literally do nothing for a living other than judge other Jews and made everyone miserable need to be kicked out of the Knesset and be forced to work for a living like every other member of society.

The Israeli government does nothing to stop it, blame them.

Originally posted by Mindship
I have no idea where you are with this.

It's divided into many different things.

Saying that "Judaism is . . ." is pretty pointless because there really isn't anything unifed enough to refer to that broadly. Your particular interpretation or one particular rabbi's interpretation do not reign supreme.

It's the exact same fallacy these people are making when they decide this girl isn't following Judaism properly.

You might as well say that Granny Smiths aren't apples because you prefer red apples.