Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We can guess yet it would have been very stupid and incompetent of Yoda to go easy on Dooku considering what was at stake. Obi-Wan clearly told Anakin he cant stop Dooku alone and if Anakin helps him they can stop the war right now. If not Anakin would have been expelled from the Jedi Order.Yes, it would be very incompetent. But look at the scene. Yoda never attacked Dooku with the force, all he did was deflect Dooku's attacks. Why wouldn't he attempt this like in his fight with Sidious (the force push)? So its not established that Dooku=Yoda in the force since Yoda never attacks back. Besides these are the prequels we are talking about characters do things that don't make sense all the time.
But still Yoda was clearly going to defeat Dooku before the distraction. My point being though Dooku clearly did have the strength to compete against him. Put up a fight at least, despite having centuries less combat experience.
Like I said. Yoda probably wasn't at his best in terms of combat power. He is old, it seems he doesn't see to much action as he just sends other Jedi to do tasks, there were no Sith before TPM so he may have slacked off on his sword training. Also there might be a peak of sword fighting skills that both he and Dooku might have reached. Dooku was a master of sword fighting its not that hard to believe he could match Yoda at that.
But yes Yoda definetely went all out against Sidious. But again with centuries more experience and sword fighting practice was unable to defeat him.
Yoda's experience means nothing because there were no Sith before, so Yoda would not have any extensive experience fighting Sith lords. You can say Sidious had as much experience in fighting Jedi than Yoda. Plus despite Yoda's age both have about the same amount of knowledge in their respective sides of the force. Therefore Yoda wouldn't hold an advantage in power. And just like you claimed Yoda was going to win against Dooku, Yoda was going to win against Sidious.
Well he wasn't a fully trained Knight yet, so probably could not apply/access that raw power anywhere near as effectively, if at all.
Neither was Luke but he had no problem accessing his raw power in Rotj. [B]
Under the assumption he's less capable than AOTC Anakin then yes he wouldn't have a chance. But if he's like Jedi Knight Anakin from CW movie (not sure if that counts as EU?? Its technically a SW Movie) then maybe he'd have a chance right??
[B] I don't think its officially EU. But I haven't seen it and pretty much ignore it. I wouldn't agree that we can use it here though because we are talking specifically about the films. Besides, I don't understand how Anakin goes from the incompetent guy in Aotc to a suddenly very effective war hero in such a short time between Aotc and the CW movie.
No Lucas has made it clear he was far less powerful after Mustafar. Master of the Dark Side is kind of hyperbole. Nothing that was mentioned in the movies. Was his Mastery of the Force greater than the Likes of Count Dooku?? I doubt it.
You don't know. He's been taught by Sidious for twice as long as Dooku was. Dooku was a Sith from the end of TPM to the start of Rots, that's around 13 years and I don't think they saw eadh other much since Dooku was busy with the CW . Vader had 20+ of Sith training/instruction. Plus, their force feats are similar. I don't see any reason to put Vader below Dooku.
Perhaps he just meant his knowledge of the force was greater. To be honest that line doesn't mean all that much. He's not exactly going to say "Im a weakling compared to what I was, so please take it easy on me.."
He was confident he could take Ben and even boasted his knew knowledge of the Dark Side. Why would he boast knowledge if it didn't come along with Power?
The fact is his younger self defeated someone considerably more powerful than Old Ben. That was Count Dooku. The fact that after all those years of Mastering the Dark Side he had trouble taking down Old Ben does not really help his case here.
This is done for dramatic purposes. There is no reason why a full-fledged Sith Lord should have any problems with a padawan in TPM yet it happens.
Nor does the fact that in the audio commentary of that scene Lucas says this fight is not as good compared to the PT ones because Vader is mostly machine and Ben an old man.
Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are weak it just means they have limited mobility.
I don't buy that. Dooku was a pure fencer, who has gone up against someone as powerful as Yoda. This idea that his style could not handle it comes from a line in the ROTS novel that says something like "his own elegant Makashi could not handle the striles of Djem So head on, especially while fending off another attacker.."
But as the fight becomes one on one and really heats up, the novel makes it perfectly clear the Only thing Dooku could not handle was Anakin's raw power.
I haven't really read the novel so I can't comment on that. But I think it most hold some water. If we take the even at face value and consider Anakin that powerful that powerful as to casually dispatch extremely powerful Sith lords than that elevates him to even more powerful than Sidious and Yoda, but he is clearly not yet as of the end of Rots. "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us..."/B]
And like I mentioned above.. Lucas states in ANH Audio commentary that Vader does not fight as well now because he's mostly machine. Implying he's a lot worse in terms of a Lightsaber fight at least. Less mobile, much slower, e.t.c.
[B] Agreed. Darth Vader is inferior to Anakin Skywalker in lightsaber combat, not necessarily less powerful overall.
And again Dooku had more "Force Knowledge" than Anakin, much much more. And Sidious had more "Force Knowledge" than Mace Windu. Much more, but the latter still beat him in a Lightsaber fight.
You are repeating the same things.
Force Knowledge /=/ Lightsaber skills. Sidious also had been too busy the whole PT to practice his lightsaber skills, while Mace had been busy using his in a war. Also note that Sidious would have defeated Windu in the force, however, Windu was able to stand a chance because he had a special form which allowed him to counter the Dark Side.
Ben says to Luke in ROTJ "The Emporer knew as well as I did, If Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him.."
In other words They had to keep them hidden. The Emporer sensed Luke's powers growing in ESB. But he was an adult by then. He was with the rebellion, able to try and escape the Empire if they came after him.
So I'm guessing they thought teaching Luke as a child would have just been far too risky. They did not want to alert the Emporer of his existence yet.
There is no evidence that training Luke would have allowed the Empire to find Luke. He trained all of ESB in Dagobah and then later presumably trained on his own between ESB and Rotj yet, Darth Vader and the Emperor are never able to find him. Plus Sidious had been training Maul before TPM without the Jedi knowing, why couldn't the Jedi do the same with Luke??
But Luke was the only one capable of making that shot. In all fights against the Empire after that the Rebellion had Force endowed pilot on their side.
That was obviously a powerful weapon they had on their side. I think that was much more useful really than being able to defeat Vader or the Emporer in a Lightsaber fight.
I think the point was there will always be flaws to exploit in technology. Which is why the Force was the real weapon and decider of who controlled the Galaxy.
Yoda and Ben never planned for Luke to join any rebellion to destroy the Empire. If they believed in an armed resistance the Empire, than they would have started one themselves. In fact, that's a good question why DIDN'T Ben and Yoda try to start some kind of armed resistance against Empire? The Jedi were willing to go to war with the Seperatists why not the Empire?
Well in the PT The Dark side seemed to be more powerful than the Light. Sidious blocked the Jedi vision completely so they had no idea what was coming. In AOTC Mace Windu says "I think we should inform the senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.."
And Yoda says "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness"
I think Anakin's prescence in the Force having the Force so strongly with him could have tipped the balance making the Light side stronger again. But problem was he was never truly attuned to the Light side was he?
Unlike Luke, whose prescence was clearly felt by the Emporer as a Disturbance in the Focre. And then it was the Emporer who could no longer see the future. He did not forsee Vader's betrayal or his own death.
It was the whole Balance of the Force shifting which is what I believe killed the Emporer in the end.
Agreed. But Yoda and Ben had no idea that the force would shift when they made their plan.