You Know You're A Fundamentalist If...

Satan posted this on Facebook... dev

You Know You're A Fundamentalist If...

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Some of those are pretty awful, like 14-year-old edgy nihilist awful. I mean #10 is just "People believe things and don't believe other things. Isn't that hilarious?" and #1 is symptomatic of really stupid ways of looking at religion that have been shutting down all conversation between atheism and religion for more than a decade.

I don't believe in Satan. 😉

I think it boils down to fundamentalists not really having eyes for irony... (when it comes to their beliefs at least). Because that is the way truth-force beliefs are: "it is simply right because it is right, or because God said so." It doesn't matter if it's just as ridiculous as other literal beliefs, it's still "the truth."

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I think it boils down to fundamentalists not really having eyes for irony... (when it comes to their beliefs at least). Because that is the way truth-force beliefs are: "it is simply right because it is right, or because God said so." It doesn't matter if it's just as ridiculous as other literal beliefs, it's still "the truth."

That is an over simplification of what fundamentalists really believe. I was raised in a fundamentalists family, so I understand them. They believe that the world is different then we see and experience. They also believe that the holy spirit shows then the real reality, but other people, who are not filled with the holy spirit, cannot experience it. That means empirical information is of no value, and the product of deceit.

Also, making fun of them or attacking them in any way simply reinforces their beliefs, and is considered proof that they are right and you are wrong.

I grew up that way, too, bro. Who said I was making fun? I just find it interesting...

Of course there's reasons inside fundamentalist thinking that leads them to believe a certain way. I don't see anything wrong with following a particular religion. But I do think you're not doing the human spirit and mind justice if you believe things that are meant to be meaningful symbols literally.

I don't post Christ as my avatar for no reason. 😉

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I grew up that way, too, bro. Who said I was making fun? I just find it interesting...

I don't see anything wrong with following a particular religion. But I do think you're not doing the human spirit and mind justice if you believe things that are meant to be meaningful symbols literally.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about you. I was being general.

They live in a cage of their own creation, and only they have the key.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Also, making fun of them or attacking them in any way simply reinforces their beliefs, and is considered proof that they are right and you are wrong.

Obviously we realize that that logic doesn't follow, but you're absolutely right that it's how responses are treated many times. I had to be incredibly careful early on when I left religion, because one slip and I became some stereotype in some peoples' eyes.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Some of those are pretty awful, like 14-year-old edgy nihilist awful. I mean #10 is just "People believe things and don't believe other things. Isn't that hilarious?" and #1 is symptomatic of really stupid ways of looking at religion that have been shutting down all conversation between atheism and religion for more than a decade.

Which does become somewhat complicated when, for example, atheists (and Jews, to be fair) traditionally know more about religion than their religious counterparts. It's like, try bringing up that there's a likely-causal link between intelligence and non-religiosity. There's basically no way to do it tactfully, but it's there.

I agree that the list is needlessly aggressive toward fundamentalists, but there's some truth in a lot of them (like the claims of scientific ignorance). Being so scathing actually is kinder on most Christians, because it allows them to say, "well yeah, those Christians are, but I'm not that way," because it's working with, if not a straw man, at least a caricature of most theists.

Originally posted by Digi

I agree that the list is needlessly aggressive toward fundamentalists, but there's some truth in a lot of them (like the claims of scientific ignorance). Being so scathing actually is kinder on most Christians, because it allows them to say, "well yeah, those Christians are, but I'm not that way," because it's working with, if not a straw man, at least a caricature of most theists.

That's more than likely the response many would come up with. Very good point. But the fact remains, the scenarios above are how it is taught. I know because I lived it. So it's really not a straw man at all. Now of course there's exceptions. I've witnessed those, too, but this is how "fundamentalists" not "progressives" (if you will) operate.

Originally posted by Digi
Which does become somewhat complicated when, for example, atheists (and Jews, to be fair) traditionally know more about religion than their religious counterparts.

Atheists tend to know more about religious history and holy texts. These things tell you very little about the religion. This difference of thinking shuts down discussion because it results in people talking past each other. Its the reason you end up with atheists telling religious people what they're allowed to believe. That behavior might work with fundamentalists but its the reason my mother threw out God Is Not Great despite being a very tolerant liberal Christian. Preaching to people about their own beliefs is the worst thing you can do (in fact its why you and ini are objecting to dadude in the other thread, he's telling you how to be an atheist and you don't like it).

Imagine if a creationist told you what you were allowed to believe about evolution because they read Origin of Species and decided that was all there was to know about the subject. Its absurd and its not constructive.

Originally posted by Digi
I agree that the list is needlessly aggressive toward fundamentalists, but there's some truth in a lot of them (like the claims of scientific ignorance).

Didn't that survey I posted in another thread show that the evangelicals were generally the ... well... most stupid "religious" demographic out there?

Interesting quote...

But to be fair, even though they may deny the rights of women and gays, there has also been lots of good done by missionaries in aide to the less fortunate, which is what it's all about.

It all depends on what your intent is. A Bodhisattva would use kindness to help guide the blind into the larger community.

Its not blindness. Blindness is passive. Discussion of religion is passive. These are not people who would accept his kindness and want nothing to do with the larger community.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Its not blindness. Blindness is passive. Discussion of religion is passive. These are not people who would accept his kindness and want nothing to do with the larger community.

So, you think I am talking about blind people?

You can have blindness of the mind.

Note: please don't try to look that up in a medical book. 😛

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, you think I am talking about blind people?

You can have blindness of the mind.

Note: please don't try to look that up in a medical book. 😛

No (read past the first sentence, would you?) I'm pointing out that blindness is a terrible way of thinking about this. It isn't that they haven't seen the facts or other ways of thinking, it's that they fight against them. Active rather than passive.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No (read past the first sentence, would you?) I'm pointing out that blindness is a terrible way of thinking about this. It isn't that they haven't seen the facts or other ways of thinking, it's that they fight against them. Active rather than passive.

Active or passive, does not matter.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It all depends on what your intent is. A Bodhisattva would use kindness to help guide the blind into the larger community.

I agree. I like that.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Atheists tend to know more about religious history and holy texts. These things tell you very little about the religion. This difference of thinking shuts down discussion because it results in people talking past each other. Its the reason you end up with atheists telling religious people what they're allowed to believe. That behavior might work with fundamentalists but its the reason my mother threw out God Is Not Great despite being a very tolerant liberal Christian. Preaching to people about their own beliefs is the worst thing you can do (in fact its why you and ini are objecting to dadude in the other thread, he's telling you how to be an atheist and you don't like it).

Imagine if a creationist told you what you were allowed to believe about evolution because they read Origin of Species and decided that was all there was to know about the subject. Its absurd and its not constructive.

Well, mind you, I wasn't advocating that kind of "talking past." I was just highlighting some difficulties in bringing to light certain truths that others will find displeasing. "Atheists are on average smarter than fundamentalists" is true based on the information we have, yet I recognize and agree with you that it's a horrible approach to take when addressing the two.

Your "Origin" example is a good one, but I think there's one problem. Walking the line between presenting an opposing argument and being heavy-handed with the presentation isn't easy. Basically, if a creationist were totally ignorant of evolutionary evidence, and I was presenting it to him, at what point will it become "if you're not going to be able to counter this, you should really believe it because of all this evidence." ...in tone, at least. Obviously that would never be explicitly stated. To make it even simpler, if someone legit believed in unicorns or Santa or something, I'd have a hard time not being blunt with them. People are entitled to their beliefs, whatever they may be, but we should be smarter than that. Given what we know, I see correcting a creationist on level with correcting a kid's math homework when he multiplies wrong. And no, I'm not an evolutionary scientist, but I make damn sure I've read more on both sides of the argument than 1-2 majors texts before making the assertion. I could be wrong, that's a possibility, but anyone debating me better have the same rigor or I consider their position disingenuous.

I can't really comment on what is worst/best though. If we knew the best ways to incite reasonable discussion, there wouldn't be a divide in religious sects.

It makes a certain amount of sense that non-religious would have the most rounded religious knowledge though. Theists are, largely, accepting a single doctrine, whereas atheists are rejecting ALL of them. At least a cursory understanding of what you're rejecting seems a prerequisite for being able to call yourself against it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Didn't that survey I posted in another thread show that the evangelicals were generally the ... well... most stupid "religious" demographic out there?

You did, but the idea that non-religious are generally smarter has been corroborated with evidence for some time now. I remember reading up on this almost a decade ago.

I also did an extensive review on KMC at on point of several meta-analyses on morality and religion that found, quite unequivocally, that atheists are on average more moral than their religious counterparts. This data stretches back decades.

It's just an impossible topic to broach in the context of an actual debate, because I immediately sound condescending. The fact that it breaks down on an individual level is hard to impart, because an affront to a person's religious demographic is often an affront to them personally.