Originally posted by OdekahnIt takes more than doing evil deeds to qualify as evil in my opinion, there also needs to be a motivation to do evil. Like you pointed out in the retard analogy, simply doing something that some people would consider evil, like a retard laughing at a dead gold fish, doesn't qualify as evil because there is a lack of evil intent. Doomsday is sort of an amalgam of a wild animal and a retarded child. They both do things that normal people might consider evil i.e killing for pleasure rather than sustenance or lack a sense of right or wrong. If a woman murders her child because she'd like to go out and party like Casey Anthony did, that is evil. If a woman kills her child because "God made her do it", the act itself may qualify as evil, but the woman is mentally ill. Doomsday kills because of a biological imperative, much like a wild animal. Now other versions of Doomsday you would be exactly right, Gog Wars Doomsday for example would qualify as evil on the grounds that his intelligence had evolved to the point where he could make a moral judgement. HP Doomsday on the other hand lacks that higher level of thinking.
The retard did an evil thing (by some people's standards), and I agree that doesn't make him "evil". Just like someone who tells a lie isn't automatically a liar. It's the continuation of said actions that begin to define an individual or character. Doomsday is rage. He gets enjoyment out of killing, and that's all he was created to do. Granted, there's no higher motive there other than to kill (he doesn't want to rule the world or anything like that) but to continually murder is evil. It doesn't matter how he sees it anymore than the mother who murders her child because "God told her too." It's evil, lol.
Originally posted by Brockalizer
It takes more than doing evil deeds to qualify as evil in my opinion, there also needs to be a motivation to do evil. Like you pointed out in the retard analogy, simply doing something that some people would consider evil, like a retard laughing at a dead gold fish, doesn't qualify as evil because there is a lack of evil intent. Doomsday is sort of an amalgam of a wild animal and a retarded child. They both do things that normal people might consider evil i.e killing for pleasure rather than sustenance or lack a sense of right or wrong. If a woman murders her child because she'd like to go out and party like Casey Anthony did, that is evil. If a woman kills her child because "God made her do it", the act itself may qualify as evil, but the woman is mentally ill. Doomsday kills because of a biological imperative, much like a wild animal. Now other versions of Doomsday you would be exactly right, Gog Wars Doomsday for example would qualify as evil on the grounds that his intelligence had evolved to the point where he could make a moral judgement. HP Doomsday on the other hand lacks that higher level of thinking.
If anything, if memory serves me, he was after Superman because of his Kryptonian heritage, and was getting revenge for what Bertron did to him...
Originally posted by Brockalizer
It takes more than doing evil deeds to qualify as evil in my opinion, there also needs to be a motivation to do evil. Like you pointed out in the retard analogy, simply doing something that some people would consider evil, like a retard laughing at a dead gold fish, doesn't qualify as evil because there is a lack of evil intent. Doomsday is sort of an amalgam of a wild animal and a retarded child. They both do things that normal people might consider evil i.e killing for pleasure rather than sustenance or lack a sense of right or wrong. If a woman murders her child because she'd like to go out and party like Casey Anthony did, that is evil. If a woman kills her child because "God made her do it", the act itself may qualify as evil, but the woman is mentally ill. Doomsday kills because of a biological imperative, much like a wild animal. Now other versions of Doomsday you would be exactly right, Gog Wars Doomsday for example would qualify as evil on the grounds that his intelligence had evolved to the point where he could make a moral judgement. HP Doomsday on the other hand lacks that higher level of thinking.
But it's not just a single act. It's the continual actions that define someone. I wouldn't call someone a liar who has told a lie before, but I would call someone a liar if they made a habit of it.
Would you or would you not agree that Doomsday's nature is to destroy and kill? He's not this timid beast who is just trying to defend himself against the little birdy that landed on his hand. He is filled with rage, and his nature is that of destruction and evil. If nothing else, his nature defines him. He's evil.
I'm guessing you would also say that Michael Myers isn't evil...
Originally posted by OdekahnKilling because of a genetic predisposition is not the same as killing for kicks. Timidity is irrelevant if you are doing exactly what you were born to do. For Doomsday killing is not a choice, more like a reflex. Several creatures are highly aggressive, that still doesn't qualify as evil.
But it's not just a single act. It's the continual actions that define someone. I wouldn't call someone a liar who has told a lie before, but I would call someone a liar if they made a habit of it.Would you or would you not agree that Doomsday's nature is to destroy and kill? He's not this timid beast who is just trying to defend himself against the little birdy that landed on his hand. He is filled with rage, and his nature is that of destruction and evil. If nothing else, his nature defines him. He's evil.
I'm guessing you would also say that Michael Myers isn't evil...
Originally posted by DarkSaint85He was drawn to Superman because he was created on Krypton. In Doomsday's mind Kryptonians represent a more direct threat to his existence than other creatures, which he would still view as a threat. It's that threat level that leads hims to react more aggressively towards Kryptonians.
If anything, if memory serves me, he was after Superman because of his Kryptonian heritage, and was getting revenge for what Bertron did to him...
Originally posted by Brockalizer
Killing because of a genetic predisposition is not the same as killing for kicks. Timidity is irrelevant if you are doing exactly what you were born to do. For Doomsday killing is not a choice, more like a reflex. Several creatures are highly aggressive, that still doesn't qualify as evil.
But here's the thing... He's not killing because he views them as a threat. He's filled with pure rage and he is shown enjoying killing. He is absolutely killing for kicks.
Timidity is relevant due the fact that he's not killing out of fear or defense of himself, he's killing to kill. He's not shying away from anything, he's seeking out places to cause even more destruction. And I don't know about viewing Kryptonians as more of a threat, it's more the fact that he remembers and hates them. Back to the whole rage thing...
And killing innocents over and over again out of rage + finding enjoyment out of it + it being the only thing you care about = evil.
Originally posted by OdekahnThe difference between someone like Doomsday going from place to place leaving death and destruction in his wake and someone like Apacalypse or Mongul is conscious choice. The latter two villains, conciously choose to commit evil acts to pursue their own evil agendas. Whether or not they personally believe that they are evil is irrellevant. They use evil as a means to an end. Doomsday is different. For him there is no choice and his only agenda is "survival at all costs". Survival is not an evil motivation. Look at it this way in Alien vs Predator, the Predator has a higher level of intelligence and kills for sport rather than survival. He would qualify as evil. The Alien, although they kill anyone they encounter only do so in order to perpetuate their species, just like any animal would. This would be parasitism rather than evil. For, me the fact that Doomsday gets a perverse pleasure out of killing isn't enough to classify him as evil. As I've stated earlier, several wild animals get pleasure out of killing lower weaker life forms. The fact that they lack the capacity for making moral decisions is what keeps them from being evil. If Doomsday killed to cheer himself up, that would be different.
But here's the thing... He's not killing because he views them as a threat. He's filled with pure rage and he is shown enjoying killing. He is absolutely killing for kicks.Timidity is relevant due the fact that he's not killing out of fear or defense of himself, he's killing to kill. He's not shying away from anything, he's seeking out places to cause even more destruction. And I don't know about viewing Kryptonians as more of a threat, it's more the fact that he remembers and hates them. Back to the whole rage thing...
And killing innocents over and over again out of rage + finding enjoyment out of it + it being the only thing you care about = evil.
Originally posted by Brockalizer
The difference between someone like Doomsday going from place to place leaving death and destruction in his wake and someone like Apacalypse or Mongul is conscious choice. The latter two villains, conciously choose to commit evil acts to pursue their own evil agendas. Whether or not they personally believe that they are evil is irrellevant. They use evil as a means to an end. Doomsday is different. For him there is no choice and his only agenda is "survival at all costs". Survival is not an evil motivation. Look at it this way in Alien vs Predator, the Predator has a higher level of intelligence and kills for sport rather than survival. He would qualify as evil. The Alien, although they kill anyone they encounter only do so in order to perpetuate their species, just like any animal would. This would be parasitism rather than evil. For, me the fact that Doomsday gets a perverse pleasure out of killing isn't enough to classify him as evil. As I've stated earlier, several wild animals get pleasure out of killing lower weaker life forms. The fact that they lack the capacity for making moral decisions is what keeps them from being evil. If Doomsday killed to cheer himself up, that would be different.
You basically just said that Doomsday isn't evil because he doesn't know any better. He's not evil because he doesn't have an evil agenda. He's not making a conscious choice. Very rarely are you going to find any character who believes themselves to be evil. Apocalypse believes he's doing what's right, just as Ras Al Ghul believes that what he's doing is right. But they're still evil. There's no way to dance around this... a conscious choice doesn't matter, evil is still evil regardless of how the one commiting the evil views themselves and their actions. Even if he doesn't know that what he's doing is evil, he's still doing it, getting enjoyment out of it, and it's his nature to do so. He has a nature of rage, murder, and destruction. It's an evil nature.
He's not just trying to survive. He's destroying and killing everything in his path. The fact that he gets enjoyment out of it DOES matter because it shows that he's not doing it for self-defense or simply to "survive".
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, murders like a duck... It's a duck no matter if it believes itself to be a duck or not.
Originally posted by OdekahnI think that your definition of evil is overly broad. If I'm understanding you correctly that would also classify many superheroes as evil: Silver Surfer and Punisher for example. They commit acts of evil doing what they believe is right. One could even expand it further to argue that Batman is evil because he has chosen to allow the Joker to live to kill another day. I honestly don't believe that Doomsday is no more evil than a retarded child. They all have the capacity of to commit evil acts but either lack the capacity to know that it is wrong. The before mentioned villains may not believe that what they are doing is evil, but they are aware of the concepts of right and wrong. Think as Bertron as Michael Vick and Doomsday as one of the pitbulls. If that pitbull got out it would kill or at least try to kill the first man, woman, or child it encountered, and also feel good about doing so and possibly even expect a reward. Is that pitbull evil for doing what it's master bred it to do?
You basically just said that Doomsday isn't evil because he doesn't know any better. He's not evil because he doesn't have an evil agenda. He's not making a conscious choice. Very rarely are you going to find any character who believes themselves to be evil. Apocalypse believes he's doing what's right, just as Ras Al Ghul believes that what he's doing is right. But they're still evil. There's no way to dance around this... a conscious choice doesn't matter, evil is still evil regardless of how the one commiting the evil views themselves and their actions. Even if he doesn't know that what he's doing is evil, he's still doing it, getting enjoyment out of it, and it's his nature to do so. He has a nature of rage, murder, and destruction. It's an evil nature.He's not just trying to survive. He's destroying and killing everything in his path. The fact that he gets enjoyment out of it DOES matter because it shows that he's not doing it for self-defense or simply to "survive".
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, murders like a duck... It's a duck no matter if it believes itself to be a duck or not.
Originally posted by Brockalizer
[B]I think that your definition of evil is overly broad. If I'm understanding you correctly that would also classify many superheroes as evil: Silver Surfer and Punisher for example. They commit acts of evil doing what they believe is right. One could even expand it further to argue that Batman is evil because he has chosen to allow the Joker to live to kill another day.
No. As I've already stated earlier, commiting an evil doesn't make an individual evil. It's the continual actions that define an individual. Maybe Batman or Surfer made the wrong choice, but they also do a lot of good.
I honestly don't believe that Doomsday is no more evil than a retarded child. They all have the capacity of to commit evil acts but either lack the capacity to know that it is wrong.
Does the retard make a habit of going on mass killing sprees?
The before mentioned villains may not believe that what they are doing is evil, but they are aware of the concepts of right and wrong.
And yet they are doing what they believe is the right thing. Being unaware of the concept of right and wrong doesn't make an individual not evil. Evil isn't a choice, it's a description.
Think as Bertron as Michael Vick and Doomsday as one of the pitbulls. If that pitbull got out it would kill or at least try to kill the first man, woman, or child it encountered, and also feel good about doing so and possibly even expect a reward. Is that pitbull evil for doing what it's master bred it to do?
I would actually argue that the dogs would attack people because they are afraid. I would also argue that cujo was an evil dog. Again, it's not a choice, it's a description. Doomsday does nothing but kill and destroy. That's all. He doesn't do good and mess up every now and then. He's rage filled and destroys. He's evil. I see the point you're trying to make but there's no way around the fact that it's what he is.
Oh, and by the same token a child can be raised to be evil. Just because it's how they were made/molded/created/etc. to be doesn't change what they are.
Originally posted by OdekahnSo planetary genocide is okay is you "do some good along the way"? What about The Punisher? He is a serial murderer, but it's not evil if you only kill bad people?
No. As I've already stated earlier, commiting an evil doesn't make an individual evil. It's the continual actions that define an individual. Maybe Batman or Surfer made the wrong choice, but they also do a lot of good.
Originally posted by Odekahn
Does the retard make a habit of going on mass killing sprees?
Originally posted by Odekahn
And yet they are doing what they believe is the right thing. Being unaware of the concept of right and wrong doesn't make an individual not evil. Evil isn't a choice, it's a description.
Originally posted by Brockalizer
Again...I'm probably in the minority but I'm going with Team Marvel. IMO Darkseids OE won't affect Thanos (I've illustrated why in another thread) and I don't see any one else being much of a threat to the Mad Titan, who could easily hold his own against anyone of the Superman Villains.
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Brockalizer. You went from debating about Doomsday being a True Villain (which he is) to being Evil. Those two aren't mutually exclusive. While it could be argued that Doomsday is not evil (I personally disagree with you), there is no shadow of a doubt that he is a villain... to assume otherwise is almost insane. Galactus (like you said) is not Evil, but he was a villain. Hell, you could argue that joker is nothing more than a bi-product of poor raising, a chemical bath, and the fact that there's a man dressing like a bat roaming the streets, doesn't detain from the fact that he's a villain.