"McClane Luck Factor"

Skills like what? Give me some GOOD examples of McClane walking into a area, scanning his resources, and implementing an escape. And I don't mean "use a rock to break a window", I'm talking complex plans, like Bauer and Bourne are capable of pulling off. And once again, don't include instances where he was ****ing pawned and then a resource popped up at the last minute due to the plot. To quote RLM, McClane's victories require more plot convenience than a 24-hour Walgreens

Originally posted by Lestov16
Skills like what? Give me some [b]GOOD examples of McClane walking into a area, scanning his resources, and implementing an escape. And I don't mean "use a rock to break a window", I'm talking complex plans, like Bauer and Bourne are capable of pulling off. And once again, don't include instances where he was ****ing pawned and then a resource popped up at the last minute due to the plot. To quote RLM, McClane's victories require more plot convenience than a 24-hour Walgreens [/B]

Well the DH4 helicopter scene fits nicely, he surveys the situation, knowing that he'll get creamed if the free runners get in the tunnel, he devises the complex and dangerous plan of driving the car into the toll booth knowing that the trajectory will take the car into the waiting helicopter and then thus, a complex problem has been solved.

Why can't you understand that Bauer and Bourne adhere to the same rules of luck as any action star? If Bauer is not lucky, why is it that none of the top, top guys he goes up against doesn't just shoot him in the head when they first see him? Why do they keep missing him in gunfights?

Luck, plain and simple.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Skills like what? Give me some [b]GOOD examples of McClane walking into a area, scanning his resources, and implementing an escape. And I don't mean "use a rock to break a window", I'm talking complex plans, like Bauer and Bourne are capable of pulling off. And once again, don't include instances where he was ****ing pawned and then a resource popped up at the last minute due to the plot. To quote RLM, McClane's victories require more plot convenience than a 24-hour Walgreens [/B]

DH1 is the first example, of course.. The entire movie happens that way.

On the level that he realises whats happening, then before taking the enemy down, he stalks them, gathering intell, names listing which floor is which and such and such. The rest of the movie shows him using that knowledge of enemies and surroundings to escape, killing all bad guys and saving the goodguys (minus Takagi).

He rarely ever walked into an ambush, and would usually cover a room whilst entering it.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
DH1 is the first example, of course.. The entire movie happens that way.

On the level that he realises whats happening, then before taking the enemy down, he stalks them, gathering intell, names listing which floor is which and such and such. The rest of the movie shows him using that knowledge of enemies and surroundings to escape, killing all bad guys and saving the goodguys (minus Takagi).

He rarely ever walked into an ambush, and would usually cover a room whilst entering it.

👆

Exactly, and what's doubly awesome is that he had no strong idea how the building was even laid out (he might have had a brief glance at a map in the lobby I think) or where the terrorists were.

Bauer starts out every investigation only knowing a terrorist attack is imminent. He doesn't even have the luxury of being in the same vicinity as the terrorists (McClane of course requires this plot contrivance, because otherwise, he would utterly fail as a counter terrorist).Doesn't know where or sometimes even by whom. And 6 hours later, while McClane is dicking around with Zeus, Jack has already stopped the first terrorist attack ,and is on his way to stopping the second

Originally posted by Lestov16
Bauer starts out every investigation only knowing a terrorist attack is imminent. He doesn't even have the luxury of being in the same vicinity as the terrorists (McClane of course requires this plot contrivance, because otherwise, he would utterly fail as a counter terrorist).Doesn't know where or sometimes even by whom. And 6 hours later, while McClane is dicking around with Zeus, Jack has already stopped the first terrorist attack ,and is on his way to stopping the second

And at no point do "luck and plot contrivances" as you say help him out?

Likewise McClane's intell is self gathered most of the time.
He is never confronted with a badguy's whole plan right at the get go..he improvises, adapts and overcomes.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Bauer starts out every investigation only knowing a terrorist attack is imminent. He doesn't even have the luxury of being in the same vicinity as the terrorists (McClane of course requires this plot contrivance, because otherwise, he would utterly fail as a counter terrorist).Doesn't know where or sometimes even by whom. And 6 hours later, while McClane is dicking around with Zeus, Jack has already stopped the first terrorist attack ,and is on his way to stopping the second

He had CTU backing him up, feeding him information constantly so he can complete the missions. That's not going into a situation ignorant of the facts. Not to mention all the agents and mercs he teamed up with constantly.

McClane had zero help in DH1(Al was nothing but moral support), minimal help in DH2 (McClane moved of his own accord), DH3 he had help from Zeus but Zeus hardly affected any of the action, McClane took care of all the villains, and DH4 minimal assistance in the shape of Farrell (again McClane did all the work and all the moves were of his decisions)

Originally posted by Robtard
And at no point do "luck and plot contrivances" as you say help him out?

Nope. Seconds after Mason told him everything they knew about a nuke in LA, Jack immediately devised a course of action and got a lead. Using his own inituion and tactics

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Likewise McClane's intell is self gathered most of the time.
He is never confronted with a badguy's whole plan right at the get go..he improvises, adapts and overcomes.

Neither is Jack. There's a reason it's called 24 and not 6. Jack's has had literally hours (and with NO backup from CTU) to stop WWIII, caused by some villain who wishes to profit, and he's unraveled their plans and killed all of their henchmen before that can begin to re-strategize.

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
He had CTU backing him up, feeding him information constantly so he can complete the missions. That's not going into a situation ignorant of the facts. Not to mention all the agents and mercs he teamed up with constantly.

CTU always helps him, huh? Like when he assaulted murdered everybody in the Russian Consulate and assaulted Logan's motorcade? Or essentially the entire first act of S4, where Jack found and traced the lead by himself because his superiors considered him a loose cannon, and then stopped the terrorist attack (public execution) by himself by performing a one-man raid on the terrorist compound (not his first and DEFINITELY not his last one-man raid)

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
McClane had zero help in DH1(Al was nothing but moral support), minimal help in DH2 (McClane moved of his own accord), DH3 he had help from Zeus but Zeus hardly affected any of the action, McClane took care of all the villains, and DH4 minimal assistance in the shape of Farrell (again McClane did all the work and all the moves were of his decisions)

Complete strawman argument, as it's already been stated multiple times that the plots of the DH villains were far less complex than 24's

Originally posted by Lestov16
Nope. Seconds after Mason told him everything they knew about a nuke in LA, Jack immediately devised a course of action and got a lead. Using his own inituion and tactics

In all 8 season of the show, not once has luck or plot-device saved and/or allowed Bauer to prevail? I find that hard to believe, esp considering you said he died and was revived by the same villains that killed him.

If not, it stands to reason that Bauer consistently goes against epic morons and complete chumps, guys McClane would wipe the floor with, with his luck/resourcefulness/plot-help power-set.

HE's gotten lucky yes. But luck only accounts for about 5% of his success, while the other 95% goes towards his skills and professionalism

With McClane, it's the opposite. He's 98% luck and 2% villain stupidity

Originally posted by Lestov16
HE's gotten lucky yes. But luck only accounts for about 5% of his success, while the other 95% goes towards his skills and professionalism

With McClane, it's the opposite. He's 98% luck and 2% villain stupidity

I find that hard to believe, esp considering Shadow Z's comments on the show.

Incorrect, a larger percentage is on-the-fly-thinging and resourcefulness. But even if you're correct(you're not), McClane solos all episodes of 24 due to his "98% Luck-Factor", a guy that lucky wouldn't need the CTU, Gov Agents and Mercs helping him.

Originally posted by Lestov16

CTU always helps him, huh? Like when he assaulted murdered everybody in the Russian Consulate and assaulted Logan's motorcade? Or essentially the entire first act of S4, where Jack found and traced the lead by himself because his superiors considered him a loose cannon, and then stopped the terrorist attack (public execution) by himself by performing a one-man raid on the terrorist compound (not his first and DEFINITELY not his last one-man raid)

Complete strawman argument, as it's already been stated multiple times that the plots of the DH villains were far less complex than 24's

CTU was a major part of his info and even when he stepped off the grid he certainly found help among criminals, mercs and other agents. I'm sure he did do solo stuff and probably found villains that couldn't shoot straight or kill him when they had him incapacitated too. The suggestion that in 8 seasons (with a feat per episode requiring intel from someone) he had less help than McClane did in four films is ludicrous. That's where bringing a tv character in movie discussions really hurts you.

So? Complex or no he had minimal assistance and the moves he made were all inspired by one person - McClane. Bauer had CTU, mercs, criminals and agents holding his hand for 8 seasons pointing him everywhere.

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
CTU was a major part of his info and even when he stepped off the grid he certainly found help among criminals, mercs and other agents.

You realize half the time he goes lone wolf, and not only does he need to beat the terrorists, he has to avoid the government trying to capture him as well?

And the reason they don't kill him upon capture is because he holds valuable information pertinent to the success of the terrorist's mission. The Chinese Government tortured him for 20 months and he didn't crack.

And can you please stop asserting claims about Jack until you've watched the series?

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z

So? Complex or no he had minimal assistance and the moves he made were all inspired by one person - McClane. Bauer had CTU, mercs, criminals and agents holding his hand for 8 seasons pointing him everywhere.

Ignoring your comments about Bauer, because you are ignorant about 24, please comment on Bourne. This isn't a McClane vs Bauer thread afterall.

Originally posted by Placidity
Ignoring your comments about Bauer, because you are ignorant about 24, please comment on Bourne. This isn't a McClane vs Bauer thread afterall.

Well I'll ignore this whole topic because Bauer is not a movie character and Lestov is the one who keeps swinging this into a contest between McClane and Bauer and he also was the one who brought Bourne into this so why don't you go quoting him?

Yes the butthurt is strong with this one still.

Jeez, Saddie. First you put me in your sig. Now you're resurrecting my old threads from almost a year ago? If you want me to give you butthurt , just say so, and I can get the lube right now.

LOL You cry because it points out your butthurt and anti McClane bias.

(As does the indy dupe thread and the Van Zan thread lol)

Originally posted by Lestov16
If a KMC Movie Versus thread happened to have John McClane, of the Die Hard franchise involved, is this applicable as a "feat"? I can understand if this was Jason Bourne, where he tactically analyzes every part of his environment to resourcefully excogitiate some ingenious plan. But "being in the right place at the right time" is just that. Nothing about it is inherently based on the hero, so the feat is not theirs no? They didn't plan it. It just happened to be there. That happens to every movie character, and not just action heroes. So I'm simply bringing the validity of this "feat".

It's like the "Batman can beat anyone with prep time" absurdity. Or like claiming Rambo is a bullet-timer simply because he can stand in an open field an not get hit by the dozen or so soldiers firing at him... but really, that's just the "luck" property that every action hero has, some more than others.

Some people argue properly for McClane, admitting both his weaknesses and strengths, and I respect those who debate for him in this manner. But some people go as far as to claim McClane has unlimited damage soak or even that he's incapable of being knocked out... and that's where you know you've stepped into fanboy kingdom.