Nihilus vs Abeloth

Originally posted by Zampanó
But N. is such a perfect distillation of what the dark side really is! Think about it this way: In KotOR, being really really evil made you grow horns and cracked skin and rage and shit. Being good to the same degree made your posture better. The light side is simply the action of life forms being the best that they can be. Meanwhile, the Dark side is a corruption/perversion of those life forms; they become cut off and isolated from their fellow beings. N. is the embodiement; the ultimate articulation of the illusion of separation. For a series founded at least partially in the ideas of Buddhism, that is a perfect lesson: To be separate is to kill yourself.

More to the point, N.'s appearanace is so perfectly arranged. He sends a minion to project his power, and then gets tripped up by arrogance. Much like Galactus, he is (meant to be) a force beyond any specific combatant.

U fubd B, ti be nire ubterestubg because he is tied in--"keyed in"--to the universe's metaphysical nature. He is actually part of the cosmology.

I love Darth N.

What 'e said.

Also, hating Nihilus for being more powerful than Sidious is kind of silly. Sidious' appeal is his manipulator status. He is simply one of the best opportunists and actors of his time, able to pull of the complete deception of the Jedi Order and the Republic, destroy the former while reshaping the latter into his own facist regime, and reigning in terror for decades before his own demise. A likeable character, but like Loki, his strength is in his personality and his capacity to manipulate and exploit, not in brutal displays of power and being "betta" than everyone else simply because he has the most exposure or media presence.

If anything, Sith in earlier areas, using lost disciplines or even becoming more powerful because of constant warfare with the Jedi makes -more- sense than Sidious becoming uber powerful by private study. Who wants the greatest Sith warrior to be a diplomat and scholar by trade, right? Better to have brute strength in either strange creatures of unnatural formation like Nihilus, or odd prodigies/brutes like Kun and Bane. It better fits the storyline to have Sith Lords admirable for a variety of different qualities rather than this one who is "Teh best" and all the others suck.

Plus Sidious looks like a ****ing old woman in combat. Just saying.

He was played by a woman in the original ESB theatrical release.....

With eyes of a lemur superimposed over for effect no less.

But I think my point is that lumping the title of "best at everything" on Sidious diminishes his strengths that no other Sith have, and in Gideon's words turn him into a Gary Stu apparently on the level of Revan. If he was very good at combat, but matched by the best of his era very closely or even overmatched, but smarter and outmaneuvered them all, fell to his own hubris (which seems to be the upfront message the movies convey to me), then I'd be totally happy. He's got strengths and weaknesses, but he's not a god. And he doesn't have to be. The concept that intellect can be more useful to a villain than strength makes the villain entirely fun to watch.

Would you want to see Hannibal if he was straight up murdering everyone with his hands in addition to outsmarting them all? Taking out FBI cops and judo masters like Bruce Lee with Rambo's spirit harnessed inside? Of course not. We don't expect Loki in the Avengers to beat down Hulk or Thor with his fists/magic staff of convenience. And we don't expect Saruman to come down from his tower and utterly beatdown the companions when he's clearly surrounded and broken in power.

So this cult worship of "Sidious it the most powerful ever, most smartest ever, best this ever" just smacks of ****ing boring characterization, and becomes an utter lack of consideration for any EU that doesn't directly fellate the character. In short, it sucks.

I'd agree if the EU's stories were at least on par with the OT. But they're not. TotJ the Bane Trilogy... Are, honestly, quite awful. Sure there are some stories almost as good like KotOR (and I'd be fine if characters like Revan and Malak were on par with Yoda and Palpatine) but it's the exception and has been pretty much ruined by TOR. Truthfully, I find that almost every single story not set around the movies to be horrible. Basically, I don't want the antagonists of these "bad" stories being stronger than the antagonists of "good" ones.

Pretty interesting commentary from le Moose and the god of war.

Originally posted by Erspei_Suggest
Pretty interesting commentary from le Moose and the god of war.

Originally posted by Zampanó
🙁

You went into more vivid detail about Nihilus elsewhere, a long while back, remember? I can't exactly award you points when your previous effort set the bar so high.

eurgh. whatever

My substantive, exhaustive, and unbeatable response is forthcoming.

Originally posted by ares834
I'd agree if the EU's stories were at least on par with the OT. But they're not. TotJ the Bane Trilogy... Are, honestly, quite awful. Sure there are some stories almost as good like KotOR (and I'd be fine if characters like Revan and Malak were on par with Yoda and Palpatine) but it's the exception and has been pretty much ruined by TOR. Truthfully, I find that almost every single story not set around the movies to be horrible. Basically, I don't want the antagonists of these "bad" stories being stronger than the antagonists of "good" ones.

Hm. I can certainly understand a knee-jerk reaction against "poor media". Things like Tales of the Jedi for example is bathed in poor story telling, coming out before the prequels and generally just setting bad precedents everywhere. But it's as much "respectable canon" as is Dark Empire or Jedi Academy. Each era has its measure of iffy or meh canon material; the Old Republic era is just maligned with having less canon to choose from by comparison. Try Deceived or Fatal Alliance for a start. You may be surprised.

On account of the fact that it's 1AM and if I keep going, I'll surpass my last Sidious essay, I'm just going to post the Sparknotes version:

[list]
[*]I agree that diplomats & scholars tend overwhelmingly [or is it overwhelmingly tend? i'm tired but this discussion is the most interesting one of a non-homoerotic nature to grace KMC in a long time] to not make the best warriors
[*]I also agree conferring godhood unto Palpatine is silly—though this would be the case for any character
[*]But it is misleading to suggest that Sidious is little more than a politician armed with a bad complexion and a mean sleight of hand
[*]Palpatine-the-politician is only ever a front for Sidious-the-Sith; the films & EU make it clear that politics are a means to an end... and the end is the Force
[*]Per Lucas, Sidious is the ultimate evil in the saga and the embodiment of the dark side; therefore, it is thematically appropriate for him to be extremely powerful
[*]This tendency to romanticize history is perplexing: yes, we lose knowledge over the [years/centuries/millennia] but it's not like we stop investigating, either
[*]The reason for why this tendency should not extend to the Force eludes me
[*]The idea that everything prior to the films should eclipse them unquestionably sucks even more because
[*]The EU is subordinate to the films; if one should consider the other, it's the EU that should consider the films always and forever
[/list]

Originally posted by Erspei_Suggest
On account of the fact that it's 1AM and if I keep going, I'll surpass my last Sidious essay, I'm just going to post the Sparknotes version:

[list]
[*]I agree that diplomats & scholars tend overwhelmingly [or is it overwhelmingly tend? i'm tired but this discussion is the most interesting one of a non-homoerotic nature to grace KMC in a long time] to not make the best warriors
[*]I also agree conferring godhood unto Palpatine is silly—though this would be the case for any character
[*]But it is misleading to suggest that Sidious is little more than a politician armed with a bad complexion and a mean sleight of hand
[*]Palpatine-the-politician is only ever a front for Sidious-the-Sith; the films & EU make it clear that politics are a means to an end... and the end is the Force
[*]Per Lucas, Sidious is the ultimate evil in the saga and the embodiment of the dark side; therefore, it is thematically appropriate for him to be extremely powerful
[*]This tendency to romanticize history is perplexing: yes, we lose knowledge over the [years/centuries/millennia] but it's not like we stop investigating, either
[*]The reason for why this tendency should not extend to the Force eludes me
[*]The idea that everything prior to the films should eclipse them unquestionably sucks even more because
[*]The EU is subordinate to the films; if one should consider the other, it's the EU that should consider the films always and forever
[/list]

Highlighted a strawman.

Also...

Why not just stick to film + film EU only continuity? If it seems to suit your style more, and GL's views more? Makes sense to me to ignore everything else outside of that realm if it doesn't fit your view of how SW ought to be, and better jives with your points above?

For my part, looking at EU as a separate entity unto itself, dependent on G-canon for a foundation but not entirely beholden to it, it seems silly to fellate the movie era as the only one of merit, but still grudgingly acknowledge other EU to exist. EU then becomes two kinds: those that support this viewpoint and those that threaten it. There's no middle ground nor happiness in that.

[list]
[*]I formally retract the strawman if it is so, but it seems to me that you were of the mind that Random Sith Mook #432 from KotOR should be on par or in excess of film!Sith: could you clarify further?
[*]I'm confused as to what you mean by ignore anything but film + film EU continuity: could you clarify further?
[/list]

SM
it seems silly to fellate the movie era as the only one of merit, but still grudgingly acknowledge other EU to exist.

[list]
[*]It seems we've both committed a strawman. The movie era isn't the only one of merit, but it is the dominant one
[/list]

Originally posted by Erspei_Suggest
[list]
[*]I formally retract the strawman if it is so, but it seems to me that you were of the mind that Random Sith Mook #432 from KotOR should be on par or in excess of film!Sith: could you clarify further?

This is still a strawman. I've asserted -no such thing-. What I have said clearly is that holding up G-canon as superior by virtue of (insert reason here) and the rest of EU not aiding to this grand legacy as being mere shit and all Sith Lords therein guilty by association and shit themselves is a pretty heavy-handed way of dealing with debating in an EU section.

[*]I'm confused as to what you mean by ignore anything but film + film EU continuity: could you clarify further?
[/list] [/B]

It seems to me that, given the Sparknotes of Love you provided earlier, your only interest is in the G-canon eras and EU pertaining to or building on that era. Therefore, why not just ignore the other stuff in your own personal head-canon? Why are you so intent on stomping out any EU threats to G-canon greatness? Seems like pushing water uphill for fun.

It seems we've both committed a strawman. The movie era isn't the only one of merit, but it is the dominant one

This is to address Ares' post. See above.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Hm. I can certainly understand a knee-jerk reaction against "poor media". Things like Tales of the Jedi for example is bathed in poor story telling, coming out before the prequels and generally just setting bad precedents everywhere. But it's as much "respectable canon" as is Dark Empire or Jedi Academy. Each era has its measure of iffy or meh canon material; the Old Republic era is just maligned with having less canon to choose from by comparison. Try Deceived or Fatal Alliance for a start. You may be surprised.

Don't get me wrong I'm not stating that all the media centered around the movies is good but rather that the films, specifically the originals, are. They way I see it the movies are the core of their era while the rest of it is "fluff". Yes, much of the fluff may be rotten like TFU or the Republic Commando novels but the films themselves, the core of this era's story, are quite strong.

For a comparison lets look at the TOR era. I find the actual story of TOR to be weak and uninspired. Sure, its fluff may be great (you mentioned Deceived which is honestly one of my favorite EU novels) but the main story of the era, the very centerpiece and linchpin of the era, is boring. It's for that reason I wouldn't want Vitiate to be greater than Palpatine. Now if Bioware created a very intricate and engaging storyline for TOR's expansion I'd be fine if they created a Sith whose combat prowess exceeds Palpatine. However, as of now I'm not.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is still a strawman. I've asserted -no such thing-. What I have said clearly is that holding up G-canon as superior by virtue of (insert reason here) and the rest of EU not aiding to this grand legacy as being mere shit and all Sith Lords therein guilty by association and shit themselves is a pretty heavy-handed way of dealing with debating in an EU section.

[list]
[*]Forgive me, you have neglected things I "have said clearly", favoring implications over assertions
[*]Fair play's a b1tch
[*]No one called anything shit
[/list]

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It seems to me that, given the Sparknotes of Love you provided earlier, your only interest is in the G-canon eras and EU pertaining to or building on that era. Therefore, why not just ignore the other stuff in your own personal head-canon? Why are you so intent on stomping out any EU threats to G-canon greatness? Seems like pushing water uphill for fun.

[list]
[*]Because ignoring stuff I don't like is, in this sense, irresponsible
[*]And I find plenty of the non-movie EU enriching
[/list]

Originally posted by ares834
Don't get me wrong I'm not stating that all the media centered around the movies is good but rather that the films, specifically the originals, are. They way I see it the movies are the core of their era while the rest of it is "fluff". Yes, much of the fluff may be rotten like TFU or the Republic Commando novels but the films themselves, the core of this era's story, are quite strong.

For a comparison lets look at the TOR era. I find the actual story of TOR to be weak and uninspired. Sure, its fluff may be great (you mentioned Deceived which is honestly one of my favorite EU novels) but the main story of the era, the very centerpiece and linchpin of the era, is boring. It's for that reason I wouldn't want Vitiate to be greater than Palpatine. Now if Bioware created a very intricate and engaging storyline for TOR's expansion I'd be fine if they created a Sith whose combat prowess exceeds Palpatine. However, as of now I'm not.

Having not played all storylines to completion, I'm not inclined to agree or disagree with you here. In retrospect, TOR failed to keep me playing, but probably more because of the end-game appeal to WoWers instead of everyone else, and the fact that I can't afford a subscription at this time than being brutally unplayable or poor storytelling. Some storylines I've been told were exceptionally good (Smuggler, Imperial Agent, for example) and others were generic (Jedi Knight, Sith Warrior). The Sith Inquisitor line, which is the only one I finished, -was- good. It was compelling, steeped in Sith lore and history, filled with backstabbing and maneuvering, and had the character working to overcome superior opponents by intelligently gaining power and allies.

You end it by

Spoiler:
becoming a Darth on the Dark Council, and one of the more formidable ones at that, having achieved amazing power and a considerable cult of personality. You're charged with guiding Sith lore specifically and become instrumental in the war effort. All in all, it's a damn good storyline.

If you're really saying "I don't like the storyline for Vitiate as written by Drew in Revan", then okay, I understand that. Drew wrote some incredible Mass Effect books, so I give him credit where due, but Revan could have been worlds better. Vitiate will never have the insidious cunning of Palpatine, but he's going for the hybrid of Sidious and Nihilus. At least he's different. The era becomes less about him though and more about his lieutenants simply ruining his war effort, and the Jedi struggling to overcome a near-fatal defeat by the Sith.

I think the era is exciting and has potential. Certainly far more than the thirteen minutes of the Clone Wars they haven't filmed left, or the time where Luke did something vague in the future.

Originally posted by Erspei_Suggest
[list]
[*]Forgive me, you have neglected things I "have said clearly", favoring implications over assertions
[*]Fair play's a b1tch
[*]No one called anything shit
[/list]

[list]
[*]Because ignoring stuff I don't like is, in this sense, irresponsible
[*]And I find plenty of the non-movie EU enriching
[/list]

So basically "Blah blah I'm being contradictory blah".

I'm not in the mood for what Vene succinctly put as petulant little shit routine (possible paraphrasing), Gideon. If you can't reasonably discuss this with me, please at least try not to be so boring in your rebuttals. Oh wait, nevermind. You just strawman, mislead and cherry pick. Rinse, repeat.

Don't let me ruin your night because I might not agree with you. Because gods know that hasn't happened before or anything.

[list]
[*]Revan sucked more male genitalia than half the women in my family and a couple of the men, too
[*]The titular character was given all the depth of a contact lens
[*]Vitiate is the lamest baddie since Triclops
[*]Bastila was utterly defanged
[/list]

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So basically "Blah blah I'm being contradictory blah".

I'm not in the mood for what Vene succinctly put as petulant little shit routine (possible paraphrasing), Gideon. If you can't reasonably discuss this with me, please at least try not to be so boring in your rebuttals. Oh wait, nevermind. You just strawman, mislead and cherry pick. Rinse, repeat.

Don't let me ruin your night because I might not agree with you. Because gods know that hasn't happened before or anything.

[list]
[*]It was "snarky shit" or some such, I believe
[*]As I said, fair play's a b1tch
[*]This is just banter anyway, don't get so upset
[*]I answered your questions:
[/list]

Me
[list]
[*]Because ignoring stuff I don't like is, in this sense, irresponsible
[*]And I find plenty of the non-movie EU enriching
[/list]