Mister Sinister vs Godzilla with a twist

Started by TheGodKiller2 pages
TheGodKiller True Killer

Originally posted by Bentley
I agree that the comparision is unfair, but remember that this Mad Gods were no name Celestials as far as we knew, and that a single Cosmic Cube enslaved the entire race of Celestials -probably more than those that Tiamut faced-. Tiamut is indeed a named Celestial and the most powerful of them all, there is no point in arguing against him until we can accept the feats from the Alternate Celestials as more or less equal to those of regular Celestials anyways. Since we aren't still there, no point in arguing against Tiamut.

Again , you're basing this off of 616 Celestials==Alternate Celestials , when that's not the case . One of those Mad Space Gods was Eson , whose 616 counterpart is not only the member of the prime host , but also the guy who first communicated with Apocalypse

Originally posted by Bentley

An alternate Tiamut did more than just scaring Galactus though.

That Tiamut also got eaten by that Galactus .

Originally posted by Bentley

First example: Franklin does nothing. Second example: Franklin does nothing. Let alone the fact of how difficult it is to compare reality warping to blasting in terms of how they should do, and also to compare Franklin after several years and more experience. If anything these feats show there is no significative difference against those Celestials.

First Example : A pissed off , no holding back Franklin(not even being inhibited by plot-based power suppressors like psychic blocks or Leech) blasts Ashema , with the clear intention of hurting(if not outright killing) her , and she is unaffected .
Second Example : A fooling around Franklin, who is clearly in the presence of Leech , and who is clearly using only some(confirmed in FF#15) of his power(in all likelihood very little of it , since he had to save most of it for the final battle with the Celestials) , warps a 4280-Celestial's head against its will , and it takes that Celestial a whole page to undo the warp .
How these two scenarios compare to each other , I'll let the onlookers decide .

Originally posted by Bentley

So many Celestials being owned in different circumstances, and the skyfather feat which is one of the best for 616 Celestials as far as I remember. The Alternate Celestials did tank the Sol weapon too, even if its very hard to measure what that weapon did. I can actually get better feats from ACs than the Skyfather one, but will that even really change your position at all?

The Alternate Celestials tanked the Sol's Anvil only in their merged state , I doubt any of them could have individually tanked it , seeing as how the body of that original dead Celestial which they used as a sort of conduit to merge , barely had anything more than its head and shoulders left after the Anvil was fired once .
Also , you ignored two other feats that I provided for the 616 Celestials , apart from the skyfather feat . That's called cherry-picking .
Again , I ask you what better feats do those ACs have to put them in the same or a higher weight class as thee 616 guys ?

Bentley Seitei
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Again , you're basing this off of 616 Celestials==Alternate Celestials , when that's not the case .

Showings differ, but that can easily be explained by plot reasons and different incarnations over the years. No evidence so far makes me sway towards the alternate Celestials being inferior in any particular way, and there are a few instances that suggest their nature is similar if not analogous.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
One of those Mad Space Gods was Eson , whose 616 counterpart is not only the member of the prime host , but also the guy who first communicated with Apocalypse .

I don't exactly understand how that changes anything.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
That Tiamut also got eaten by that Galactus ..

An alternate Galactus turned into a weapon. We have seen before that a weaponized Galactus even from an Alternate Universe can be more deadly than the regular incarnation (see the Galactus Engine).

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
First Example : A pissed off , no holding back Franklin(not even being inhibited by plot-based power suppressors like psychic blocks or Leech) blasts Ashema , with the clear intention of hurting(if not outright killing) her , and she is unaffected .
Second Example : A fooling around Franklin, who is clearly in the presence of Leech , and who is clearly using only some(confirmed in FF#15) of his power(in all likelihood very little of it , since he had to save most of it for the final battle with the Celestials) , warps a 4280-Celestial's head against its will , and it takes that Celestial a whole page to undo the warp .
How these two scenarios compare to each other , I'll let the onlookers decide .

Two instances of Franklin doing exactly nothing against Celestials. But to your merit, you do a good work at dressing it up as if the difference mattered by assumptions and art differences.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The Alternate Celestials tanked the Sol's Anvil only in their merged state , I doubt any of them could have individually tanked it , seeing as how the body of that original dead Celestial which they used as a sort of conduit to merge , barely had anything more than its head and shoulders left after the Anvil was fired once .

We know for a fact that the Reeds never thriumphed the Celestials, so its safe to say they always survive the Sol's Anvil.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Also , you ignored two other feats that I provided for the 616 Celestials , apart from the skyfather feat .

Which ones? I only reply to points that I feel are remotely relevant to the argument. The Celestials being destroyed by the IG is an example that actually works in my favor since the Alternate Celestials did better against the Alternate IG. The circumstances being very different I really don't see it as a valid point of comparision.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Again , I ask you what better feats do those ACs have to put them in the same or a higher weight class as thee 616 guys ?

Before going over an overly long answer I'd like to ask exactly the thing you are asking me about: We are exclusively focusing on the Mad Gods, right? As far as I've said up to know, the point of comparision favors a similar power level, Ashema did as good as one of the Mad Gods, with one of them facing a much more experienced Franklin with his power under control, who only aimed to delay. Feats are similar.

TheGodKiller True Killer

Originally posted by Bentley
Showings differ, but that can easily be explained by plot reasons and different incarnations over the years. No evidence so far makes me sway towards the alternate Celestials being inferior in any particular way, and there are a few instances that suggest their nature is similar if not analogous.

So you're willing to bring up different incarnations to excuse different showings , but won't accept this simple idea that alternate cosmics/abstracts != their 616 versions ? That reeks of bias . I am beginning to wonder , is that based off zop-hate?

Originally posted by Bentley

I don't exactly understand how that changes anything.

That was in reference to your implication that Tiamut is the only well-known Celestial . If you didn't imply that or didn't mean to , then I'll take it back .

Originally posted by Bentley

An alternate Galactus turned into a weapon. We have seen before that a weaponized Galactus even from an Alternate Universe can be more deadly than the regular incarnation (see the Galactus Engine).

Again , that alternate Celestial ended up becoming lunch for that Galactus . Also , we don't know what that Galactus was in his original state , just like what the Galactus Engine was before being weaponized by those cancerverse elder gods .

Originally posted by Bentley

Two instances of Franklin doing exactly nothing against Celestials. But to your merit, you do a good work at dressing it up as if the difference mattered by assumptions and art differences.

I believe I have nicely explained just exactly what Franklin did in those instances , and if you still refuse to take it for what it is worth , I don't have any problem at all .
As I said before , I'll let the onlookers decide .

Originally posted by Bentley

We know for a fact that the Reeds never thriumphed the Celestials, so its safe to say they always survive the Sol's Anvil.

We don't know for a fact whether those Reeds even got to use the Sol's Anvil against those Celestials , because the very first instance of 616 Reed operating it had him shocked at the "power of this thing" . And 616 Reed was there when the Mad Celestials' invasion began at the Bridge .

Originally posted by Bentley

Which ones? I only reply to points that I feel are remotely relevant to the argument. The Celestials being destroyed by the IG is an example that actually works in my favor since the Alternate Celestials did better against the Alternate IG. The circumstances being very different I really don't see it as a valid point of comparision.

How exactly did those ACs perform any better , when those alternate IGs weren't even functional ? The first Reed to activate his IG , went on to nuke 4 of those Mad Celestials , compared to Thanos' two(and he didn't even destroy them, despite what that panel from the Infinity Gauntlet arc suggests) . The Reed who was acting as a living portal to that IG-Reed's universe , ended up having his body destabilized , and his resulting death deactivated the IG , allowing the Mad Gods to continue their pwnage of the Reeds . Hell , those ACs were getting slagged by a random gun Reed pulled out of his closet , their armor got compromised by an anti-matter shell , and freaking Mephisto has tanked an anti-matter shot from Doom .

Originally posted by Bentley

Before going over an overly long answer I'd like to ask exactly the thing you are asking me about: We are exclusively focusing on the Mad Gods, right? As far as I've said up to know, the point of comparision favors a similar power level, Ashema did as good as one of the Mad Gods, with one of them facing a much more experienced Franklin with his power under control, who only aimed to delay. Feats are similar.

His power being under control doesn't really mean much , when you look at the fact that he could only use a little bit of it , and he was around a plot-based power suppressor(Leech) at that time .
The Franklin that Ashema no-sold was pissed-off and aimed to hurt(if not kill) her . Remeber Franklin did the last time he got pissed off ? He obliterated an amped Mephisto in the latter's own realm .
The feats aren't similar at all .

Bentley Seitei
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
So you're willing to bring up different incarnations to excuse different showings , but won't accept this simple idea that alternate cosmics/abstracts != their 616 versions ? That reeks of bias . I am beginning to wonder , is that based off zop-hate?

Oh, I agree that abstracts != their 616 versions. I don't see how that constitutes proof that they can be considered stronger by definition.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
That was in reference to your implication that Tiamut is the only well-known Celestial . If you didn't imply that or didn't mean to , then I'll take it back .?

No, I know there are other Celestials, I just thought that since Tiamut is at the top of the Celestial food chain it would be for naught to prove random Celestials are on his level.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Again , that alternate Celestial ended up becoming lunch for that Galactus . Also , we don't know what that Galactus was in his original state , just like what the Galactus Engine was before being weaponized by those cancerverse elder gods .

Sure, but many will hapily note that the incarnation of Galactus has better feats than regular Galan and that the incarnation of Tiamut has better feats than regular Tiamut. This doesn't really help the notion that the Alternate versions are always weaker imo.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
We don't know for a fact whether those Reeds even got to use the Sol's Anvil against those Celestials , because the very first instance of 616 Reed operating it had him shocked at the "power of this thing" . And 616 Reed was there when the Mad Celestials' invasion began at the Bridge .

We do know that everything the Reeds from all those alternate realities threw at them failed to beat them, this is stated by Nathaniel on panel. Again, I take it from what I read. Let the onlookers decide.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
How exactly did those ACs perform any better , when those alternate IGs weren't even functional ? The first Reed to activate his IG , went on to nuke 4 of those Mad Celestials , compared to Thanos' two(and he didn't even destroy them, despite what that panel from the Infinity Gauntlet arc suggests) . The Reed who was acting as a living portal to that IG-Reed's universe , ended up having his body destabilized , and his resulting death deactivated the IG , allowing the Mad Gods to continue their pwnage of the Reeds ..

To move into this point, can you prove those Celestials weren't destroyed?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Hell , those ACs were getting slagged by a random gun Reed pulled out of his closet , their armor got compromised by an anti-matter shell , and freaking Mephisto has tanked an anti-matter shot from Doom .

Doom is a shitty character that builds shitty weapons. Anti-matter blasts have obliterated death-backed Thanos so I guess we can accept their performance is all over the place anyways.

TheGodKiller True Killer

Originally posted by Bentley

Sure, but many will hapily note that the incarnation of Galactus has better feats than regular Galan and that the incarnation of Tiamut has better feats than regular Tiamut. This doesn't really help the notion that the Alternate versions are always weaker imo.

Except that that Galactus' original state was never revealed . Its like taking pre-super-soldier serum Captain America and giving him post-super-soldier serum Cap's feats .

Originally posted by Bentley

We do know that everything the Reeds from all those alternate realities threw at them failed to beat them, this is stated by Nathaniel on panel. Again, I take it from what I read. Let the onlookers decide.

Except the Sol's Anvil wasn't used until after the War of The Four Cities . That was the second time it was used , the first time being against an alternate Beyonder . This much was also implied , what with the remaining four alternate Reeds keeping using it on 616-Earth .

Originally posted by Bentley

To move into this point, can you prove those Celestials weren't destroyed?

In this scan , after Thanos has begun engaging the Abstracts , it appears as if Thanos kills those 2 Celestials :

Yet , here ,after defeating the Abstracts :

The Celestials are clearly depicted alive(though not necessarily well) .

Originally posted by Bentley

Doom is a shitty character that builds shitty weapons. Anti-matter blasts have obliterated death-backed Thanos so I guess we can accept their performance is all over the place anyways.

Yet , Reed had to steal Doom's heaven-reaching tech to retrieve Ben's soul . Btw , you should retract that statement about Doom , if you don't want to draw the ire of about.....well about half the board here . And Thanos reformed from that anti-matter blast , so that point is moot .

Bentley Seitei
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Except that that Galactus' original state was never revealed . Its like taking pre-super-soldier serum Captain America and giving him post-super-soldier serum Cap's feats .

I thought it was stated that Tiamut only altered his mindset.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Except the Sol's Anvil wasn't used until after the War of The Four Cities . That was the second time it was used , the first time being against an alternate Beyonder . This much was also implied , what with the remaining four alternate Reeds keeping using it on 616-Earth .

I was under the impression that Nathaniel saw the same events develop in several different ways prior to that arc, so I supposed in some of those the Reeds actually shot the Anvil.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
In this scan , after Thanos has begun engaging the Abstracts , it appears as if Thanos kills those 2 Celestials :

Yet , here ,after defeating the Abstracts :
The Celestials are clearly depicted alive(though not necessarily well) .]

The IG is such a crappy weapon.

In a more serious comment, high-end Celestials vs alternate versions of the lesser ones... I take back the Skyfather comment though, this has to be the best 616 feat out there.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
[B]Yet , Reed had to steal Doom's heaven-reaching tech to retrieve Ben's soul . Btw , you should retract that statement about Doom , if you don't want to draw the ire of about.....well about half the board here . And Thanos reformed from that anti-matter blast , so that point is moot .

I'm not really serious about Doom though, but since I have schtic with many Doom fans dissing Kang I always do some extra anti-Doom sentiment.

TheGodKiller True Killer

Originally posted by Bentley
I thought it was stated that Tiamut only altered his mindset.

"The Black Celestial dreamed him whole but altered"
This is the narrative , although I am confident that in some of the next panels , the exact thing which was altered was referred to as Galactus' form .
I'll dig up the scans tomorrow .

Originally posted by Bentley

I was under the impression that Nathaniel saw the same events develop in several different ways prior to that arc, so I supposed in some of those the Reeds actually shot the Anvil.

Actually , Nathaniel merely saw different iterations of the Celestials' murder Reed , so no its not affirmative at all that the Sol's Anvil was used in each of those instances .

Originally posted by Bentley

The IG is such a crappy weapon.

I don't see how . Other than being a very boring plot device(as it could literally do anything) , I don't find anything crappy about it at all .

Originally posted by Bentley

In a more serious comment, high-end Celestials vs alternate versions of the lesser ones... I take back the Skyfather comment though, this has to be the best 616 feat out there.

Maybe .