Marvel's THIS IS WAR event revealed!

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Re-think it? What's there to re-think? Cap didn't singlehandedly out prep Tony. Not by a long shot. He had help, lots of it, plus the loyalty and experience of working alongside the Avengers and superhuman community at large. Those are advantages Frank doesn't have.

There's not much tech on Marvel Earth that Frank can realistically get his hands on and use to great effect on an equally prepped Tony Stark. Not without some PIS in any case. Best case scenario for Frank is that he gets massive one sided prep against Tony and Tony literally expects and suspects nothing. Frank singlehandedly out prepping Tony and the rest of the Avengers would be absurd as hell.

Deadline is hilarious.

This event is a reminder of why I don't read comics anymore.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Gotta agree. For a group that prepares to take on characters like Kang he conquerer, ultron or doctor doom, frank is small potatoes.

Not neccesarily a logical argument. Cap has taken on Korvac more than once and Red Skull with the cosmic cube, that didn't stop Punisher from coming very close to killing him with very little prep. The Avengers dont always take on Galactus or Kang, there are alot of villains that aren't as dangerous as the ones you mentioned that have given The Avengers a hard time.

I'm not arguing that hes going to beat The Avengers just give them a hard time. The problem is is that Punisher operates usually on the street but if you see some of the stuff that he does you can logically deduce he would be estremely dangerous with hi-tech. As I've already mentioned twice he recently took on Norman and The Hood....

Originally posted by HueyFreeman

Where could he possibly get the tech to take them on? Latveria? Does anyone honesty believe frank could break into the baxter building and steal their tech?

You see heres the problem. First of all I think there is an element of snobbishness when it comes to The Punisher and also he doesn't have eniough fans. When you mention The Punisher people just lose the ability to be objective.

First of all In Punisher #13 A criminal organization had gained access to Reed and Stark tach. From what I can see it pretty much looks like Punisher stole the stuff.

Wait a minute didn't Wolverine break into the Baxter building with the help of Hydra and The Hand. Ok so now Punisher can't steal tech from Hydra and The Hand now?

Furthermore don't they sale hi-tech equipment on the black market? Hell there was one issue of Gambit where some thug stole a mutant inhibitor. No a mutant inhibitor isn't going to help you take out an Iron Man suit, but thats some serioulsy advanced tech.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Re-think it? What's there to re-think? Cap didn't singlehandedly out prep Tony. Not by a long shot. He had help, lots of it, plus the loyalty and experience of working alongside the Avengers and superhuman community at large.

It's a silly argument because all the advatanges that Cap had Tony had. You're saying that Cap has worked alongside The Avengers and the superhuman community but so has Tony Stark as well.

Are you trying to argue that just because it didn't just involve Cap and Tony on their own that it's not an example of Cap being superior in tactics? The fact that Cap was the leader of the anti-reg and the fact that Tony was the leader of the pro-reg and they both had to plan, prep, take control of their 'troops' is irrelevant? Not to mention that Tony had more troops, more resources and more powerful members on his side

The Civil War was essentially a prep war. Yeah there was face-to-face fighting but before the actual fights happened there was alot of planning. Cap had resources, Tony had more and better resources and he lost ie Cap won but decided to give himself up.

Obvoulsy the Civil War has great baring on a situation where its just Cap with equal level tech and Tony had equal level tech and they had a prep war. Just because it's not exactly 100% the same situation I'm talking about doesn't stop it from being extremely relevant.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Those are advantages Frank doesn't have.

Hes been studying Tony for years.......

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

There's not much tech on Marvel Earth that Frank can realistically get his hands on and use to great effect on an equally prepped Tony Stark. Not without some PIS in any case.

Again clearly illustrating why I don't post on these forums. Have you not been reading comics for long? SHIELD, HYDRA and Wilson Fisk are capable of getting their hands on Tony Stark level tech. Moon Knight can get his hands on Tony Stark tech for crying out loud.

Are you going to argue that HYDRA, SHIELD and Wilson Fisk are beyond The Punisher?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Best case scenario for Frank is that he gets massive one sided prep against Tony and Tony literally expects and suspects nothing. Frank singlehandedly out prepping Tony and the rest of the Avengers would be absurd as hell.

I'm not arguing that Punisher is going to beat The Avengers don't put words in my mouth but I'm arguing he can beat Tony.

You keep using this word PIS. Please try to explain how you are having a hard time trying to comprehend that Punisher was able to take on Norman Osborn and The Hood? Didn't we already discuss this? Yes we pretty much established that Norman Osborn is one of the best tacticians, what you tried to do was downplay Normans tactical ability and tried to play with semantics.

Norman Osborn actually saved The Earth during Dark Reign....thats how important he was. facepalm

Furthermore I've already mentioned you can argue that Cap is a better tactician than Cap heres the proof:

1.

In the Civil War Cap goes with Frank’s plan instead of his own.

The writer is talking about Punisher and Cap and speaking through The Punisher. The point is that since Cap was born in WW2 Cap is more straight forward. Punisher was born in Vietnam, instead of him taking the straight forward approach he is alot more sneakier. End result Cap nearly gets killed and Punisher has to save his life.

I know what you're going to say so I'm going to have to get in there before you make the argument I know you're going to make. No it doesn't involve hi-tech equipment and no it doesn't involve chess. The fact of the matter is this... both The Punisher and Cap had the same resources ie their arms and legs, they both had to think about how they were going to get up there and stop the driver and Punisher came out better. Give yourself a situation where Punisher has lots of hi-tech equipment and he'll do even better.

3. I can't be bothered to get the scans but earlier on in the mini he guns down Cap. How many people have tried to assassinate Cap and came that close?

When were talking about tactics I'm talking about black ops, assassination, subertufuge etc.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Deadline get your hands off Franks dick.

Read what I posted above and try and tell me what I'm saying isn't reasonable.

Hell I know some posters are just trying to be rude but I'm a bit suprised about you.

Originally posted by Deadline
Wait a minute didn't Wolverine break into the Baxter building with the help of Hydra and The Hand. Ok so now Punisher can't steal tech from Hydra and The Hand now?

Wolverine's also done it without any upgrades. Frank Castle isn't Wolverine, though. Not even close.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Wolverine's also done it without any upgrades. Frank Castle isn't Wolverine, though. Not even close.

Wait what? You serioulsy trying to tell me that Wolverine broke into the Baxter building WITHOUT any tech? Is that what you're trying to argue? Omigod Stilt why don't you get off Wolverine's dick, see what I mean about not having enough Punisher fans and snobbery?

No sorry as far as I'm concerned Punisher is a better assassin. How many times has Punisher made Wolverine look like an idiot? Oh and you can forget Einnis because way back in the late 80s a tired Punisher held his own against Wolverine, hell he didn't even know who Wolverine was and Wolverine was trying kill him. Furthermore in a Wolverine and Punisher mni they were both hunting the same guy....Punisher found him first.

Please. 😬

Originally posted by Deadline
Wait what? You serioulsy trying to tell me that Wolverine broke into the Baxter building WITHOUT any tech? Is that what you're trying to argue? Omigod Stilt why don't you get off Wolverine's dick, see what I mean about not having enough Punisher fans and snobbery?

No sorry as far as I'm concerned Punisher is a better assassin. How many times has Punisher made Wolverine look like an idiot? Oh and you can forget Einnis because way back in the late 80s a tired Punisher held his own against Wolverine, hell he didn't even know who Wolverine was and Wolverine was trying kill him. Furthermore in a Wolverine and Punisher mni they were both hunting the same guy....Punisher found him first.

Please. 😬

How is what he's doing any different from what you're doing?

Originally posted by -Pr-
How is what he's doing any different from what you're doing?

I posted evidence to back up my claims. Which you're probably going to fob off.

Originally posted by Deadline
Wait what? You serioulsy trying to tell me that Wolverine broke into the Baxter building WITHOUT any tech? Is that what you're trying to argue? Omigod Stilt why don't you get off Wolverine's dick, see what I mean about not having enough Punisher fans and snobbery?

No sorry as far as I'm concerned Punisher is a better assassin. How many times has Punisher made Wolverine look like an idiot? Oh and you can forget Einnis because way back in the late 80s a tired Punisher held his own against Wolverine, hell he didn't even know who Wolverine was and Wolverine was trying kill him. Furthermore in a Wolverine and Punisher mni they were both hunting the same guy....Punisher found him first.

Please. 😬

He did. Cry more.

Castle can't dream of being a better assassin. I hope you're not arguing Frank is a match for him... or that he's a better tracker 😂

Originally posted by Deadline
I posted evidence to back up my claims. Which you're probably going to fob off.

If it had been actual evidence, I wouldn't have to.

There is no snobbishness where Punisher is concerned; you just tend to have unrealistic expectations of the guy, and too often start trying to use ABC logic to prove a point.

"If Cap did X, then why can't Punisher to x too?" isn't logical.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He did. Cry more.

Castle can't dream of being a better assassin. I hope you're not arguing Frank is a match for him... or that he's a better tracker 😂

He said 'I got my ways'. That doesn't mean he didn't use any tech. Why are you making assumptions, when we have seen him on another ocassion having to use it?

No I'm arguing hes a better assassin.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If it had been actual evidence, I wouldn't have to.

There is no snobbishness where Punisher is concerned; you just tend to have unrealistic expectations of the guy, and too often start trying to use ABC logic to prove a point.

"If Cap did X, then why can't Punisher to x too?" isn't logical.

Look you're one of the worst debators on this forum. You're wasting my time again and doing you're usual bullying tatics.

I'm done with you and I'm not going to make another post to you. However if you continue to be insulting I'm going to throw up a post in here where it illustrates how you can't comprehend simple logic. You're one of the most unobjective posters on this forum. Carry on and thats how this is gonna go down.

Originally posted by Deadline
Look you're one of the worst debators on this forum.

Says who?

You're wasting my time again and doing you're usual bullying tatics.

i'm not bullying anyone; i'm just responding to your antagonistic posts.

basically, if people don't rate punisher as abnormally high as you want them to, you lose your shit like a baby tossing a rattle out of a pram.

I'm done with you and I'm not going to make another post to you. However if you continue to be insulting I'm going to throw up a post in here where it illustrates how you can't comprehend simple logic. You're one of the most unobjective posters on this forum. Carry on and thats how this is gonna go down.

threatening me now? Go ahead; I'd love to see how this "goes down". Or are these more empty threats? wouldn't be the first time you've used one.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Says who?

i'm not bullying anyone; i'm just responding to your antagonistic posts.

basically, if people don't rate punisher as abnormally high as you want them to, you lose your shit like a baby tossing a rattle out of a pram.

threatening me now? Go ahead; I'd love to see how this "goes down". Or are these more empty threats? wouldn't be the first time you've used one.

Are you done? Yes or No?

Originally posted by Deadline
Are you done? Yes or No?

Nope; I'm dying to see you carry through this "threat" of yours. Curiosity is a horrible thing.

I love how you can call me insulting even though you get pissy at almost anyone who doesn'r agree with you.

So, in short, bring it on.

* is this Marvel's "THIS IS WAR"? 😛

Ok heres the argument. It's Hal Jordan vs Gladiator at peak confidence. The issue isn't wether Gladiator will beat Hal its wether Gladiator's high end feats take priority and that we don't go by averages. This is how Pr responds....

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=542796&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by -Pr-
the op didn't imply anything. it was quite bare.

gladiator by standard rules starts off at whatever standard confidence is for him.

i know about gladiator, and the rules remain the same. we go by averages.

Originally posted by Simbon
No, we normally go by averages, but Gladiator's power-source creates a loophole when people stipulate "full confidence".

Originally posted by -Pr-
no it doesn't, as his confidence can fluctuate. yes, you are allowed to use his high feats to an extent, but the averages are still used more often than not.

and the OP didn't state "full confidence" either.

Actually yes he did Pr.....

Originally posted by khazra
He stated peak conidence, wich is similar.
Gladiators worse feats (colossus fight, Gambit 52 card pick up and colossus hitting back) can all be atrributed to his confidence not being at its "peak".

however, even considering these feats (and taking a more in depth look at the cannonbal feat which wasnt a fight at all) i'd give Gladiator the edge.

Originally posted by Starscream M
he did say peak confidence though

Originally posted by -Pr-
for some reason i didn't spot that in the title. my bad.

it still doesn't negate his average showings in favour of his good ones. it's not a loophole.

i already responded.

Just to be clear here, Pr has essentially ignored everything they said and carried on making the same argument.

Anyway basically Pr keeps dodging the point and it just gets silly.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, either way, the rules are clear. We go by averages and high feats as standard. In this case, the high feats are as usable as the average ones, but don't discount them.

Originally posted by bobbi
If this is "peak confidence" gladiator of course we would use his high end feats. I don't get how this is even a discussion.

The stipulations of the OP state this is gladiator at his best according to what his powers give him (aka peak confidence). It's like saying superman when he's been in a yellow sun for 1000 years. It would be ridiculous to have superman's average showings as evidence to how he would do in that fight. We would use his highest showings as a minimum and of course showing of when he has been in a yellow sun for extended periods of time and extrapolate from there.

It's no different for gladiator. If we have some evidence that his high showings are when he's more confident, it's perfectly legitimate to use those cases and not his average showings.

99% of the threads here are variations of a characters average showing. We give them advantages and tools or give them additional weaknesses to discuss what would happen. Putting gladiator at peak confidence is no difference than giving thor his belt of strength except it's a little harder to gauge when gladiator is actually at peak confidence. The showings we use change based on the OP's stipulations and peak confidence is an OP stipulation.

as for the actual question, I think i'd give gladiator a slight majority, just based on how superman has done vs GL. Still think hal can beat him if he plans it out better but he rarely does in comics.

Originally posted by bobbi
Pr, you have given us no reason not to think this is the same as every other stipulation from an OP besides "we always do average showings" which we've given examples as to not being true.

Your stance basically denies gladiators power completely. You're saying his confidence has absolutely no effect on how powerful he is. You say that gladiator's average showings should be equivalent to his showing at peak confidence.

Therefore you think gladiator at peak confidence is no stronger than he is at average confidence which makes no sense for the character.

Let me try to break this down for you.

1) The OP said gladiator at peak confidence.
2) gladiator gets stronger the more confident he is

Therefore gladiator at peak confidence is stronger than when he is at average confidence.

3) gladiator should be at average confidence an average amount of the time

4) gladiators average showing should be at average confidence.

Therefore gladiator at peak confidence should be stronger than his average showing.

5) The only showings stronger than his average showings are showings with his high end feats.

Therefore gladiator at peak confidence should have a strength more equal to the showings in his high end feats.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
peak :

–noun
1. the pointed top of a mountain or ridge.
2. a mountain with a pointed summit.
3. the pointed top of anything.
4. the highest or most important point or level: the peak of her political career.
5. the maximum point, degree, or volume of anything: Oil prices reached their peak last year.
6. a time of the day or year when traffic, use, demand, etc., is greatest and charges, fares, or the like are at the maximum: Early evening is the peak on commuter railroads.
7. the higher fare, charges, etc., during such a period: If you fly during the Christmas holidays, you'll have to pay peak.
8. Physics .
a. the maximum value of a quantity during a specified time interval: a voltage peak.
b. the maximum power consumed or produced by a unit or group of units in a stated period of time.
9. a projecting point: the peak of a man's beard.
10. widow's peak.
11. a projecting front piece, or visor, of a cap.
12. Phonetics . nucleus ( def. 8a ) .
13. Nautical .
a. the contracted part of a ship's hull at the bow or the stern.
b. the upper after corner of a sail that is extended by a gaff.
c. the outer extremity of a gaff.
–verb (used without object)
14. to project in a peak.
15. to attain a peak of activity, development, popularity, etc.: The artist peaked in the 1950s.
–verb (used with object)
16. Nautical . to raise the after end of (a yard, gaff, etc.) to or toward an angle above the horizontal.
–adjective
17. being at the point of maximum frequency, intensity, use, etc.; busiest or most active: Hotel rooms are most expensive during the peak travel seasons.
18. constituting the highest or maximum level, volume, etc.; optimal; prime: a machine running at peak performance.
Use peak in a Sentence
See images of peak
Search peak on the Web

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1520–30; perh. < MLG pçk pick, pike

—Related forms
peakless, adjective
peaklike, adjective

—Synonyms
2, 4. pinnacle. 4. acme, zenith.

—Antonyms
4. abyss, nadir.

We clear children ?

The above post clearly show you how stubborn Pr is being. It's simple the OP stated that Gladiator is at peak confidence so high end feats take priorty. The fact it's simple logic and numerous people are trying to explain this to him doesn't change anything. Pr just ignores them and carries on making the same argument. facepalm

Is somebody like that really in a postion to judge others? Pr does this is on a fairly regular basis and there are other examples.

Obvoulsy I'm not going to respond to anything you say about this post Pr, so don't bother responding to it.

lol. Nice to know you don't listen to mod rulings.

Gladiator starts every fight at peak confidence, which is where his averages come from. It's something Bada and I have repeated more than once.

Swing and a miss, Deadline.

😂

PIS and the suspension of disbelief is part of every comic-book that's ever been made. Attempting to refute its existence is pointless.

It will take (and there will be) incredible amounts of PIS involved in This Is War in order for Punisher to hold his own against the Avengers. How anyone can think otherwise is completely beyond me.

Christ, Deadline. facepalm

Originally posted by Citizen V.
It will take (and there will be) incredible amounts of PIS involved in This Is War in order for Punisher to hold his own against the Avengers. How anyone can think otherwise is completely beyond me.

Originally posted by -Pr-
lol. Nice to know you don't listen to mod rulings.

Gladiator starts every fight at PEAK confidence, which is where his averages come from. It's something Bada and I have repeated more than once.

Swing and a miss, Deadline.

*sigh* Wether or not you made some ruling afterwards is irrelevant, thats NOT the ruling you made in that thread

Originally posted by -Pr-
the op didn't imply anything. it was quite bare.

gladiator by STANDARD rules starts off at whatever STANDARD confidence is for him.

i know about gladiator, and the rules remain the same. we go by averages.

So you still can't comprehend simple english? Standard and peak are the same now? Let me guess are you going to tell me when you said standard confidence for him you mean't peak?

Gods knows whats you're going to do next. You're lying about the argument you made in that thread and if I call you out on the lie you're making you'll probably tell me thats not the argument you were making.

Lie, cheat and steal.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
😂

LOL he just blantantly contradicted himself. Youd didn't even bother to read what was actually posted you just assumed he was correct.

Thats the problem you don't think you need to make an effort because certain posters make certain arguments and about certain characters.

Originally posted by Galan007
Christ, Deadline. facepalm

This.

You're actually supposed to make a rebuttal. Not just ignore what people have to say and just assume you're correct.