KMC High-Meta Championship

Okay, this was an odd battle to judge, mainly because quotes from novelizations were used (next time it would be nice if quotes from novels were sourced.) Anyway, my vote will be short, sweet, and to the point.

I thought leo did an excellent job contending with Digi's insanely obscure pick. After all was said and done, I do not believe Luke has the chops to harm Shift's physical being for any lasting amount of time--conversely, I believe that Shift is more than capable of killing Luke quite swiftly. However, there is one important element Luke brings to the table that Shift doesn't seem to have much of a defense against: psi-related powers (namely telepathy and pre-cog.) With Luke's pre-cog, he will know every move Shift is going to make, before he makes it. If Shift is in his gaseous form, Luke's 'life detection' will come into play. These abilities would enable Luke to avoid an attack via TK shielding, and/or his lightning speed. With Luke's telepathy, he has a very good chance at invading Shift's mind, and shutting it down all together. Even if Luke didn't know about the bio-feedback bomb implanted in Shift's mind before said TP attack, his pre-cog would give him the split-second he needed to defend himself from the bombs effects before being stunned by it.

Because of those variables, my vote goes to Digi.

Both contestants did an excellent job. Well done. 👆

Thank you for the entertaining match, gentlemen. I'd say I had no clear idea of the winner until late in the match... so here's what I have to say.

1. I didn't buy leo's bio-feedback bomb tactic, cause that was specific tactic for a specific kind of a telepath who essentially touched the specific parts of the brain. In gaseous form this tactic was next to irrelevant to me - it involves brain being shifted, not mind. "Feat from another character" argument basically sealed the deal.
2. However there's another thing to consider. In SW EU Jedi CAN affect the minds of inorganic creatures but it surely involves lots of concentration and is slower than with normal beings (they don't give such creatures as Shards psi-resistance bonuses in their RPGs for nothing).
3. Force Tornado. From the description it does not seem like actual tornado (aka stream of wind) but like a ton of debris hurled around (debris being macroscopic objects). However, gas molecules are micro objects, there were no substantial feats of molecular TK shown so hurling around chunks of metal is irrelevant to me.
4. Gas cooling/filtering. Now, that is a substantial feat. BUT not without its drawbacks. If the air Luke inhales is indistinguishable from any normal air...
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In short - Digi showed that Luke has ways to deal with Shift. However I do not believe that Luke's precog is specific enough to prevent him from inhaling seemingly normal air turning into acid when already in lungs, so even with feedback bombs being the BS of the year in my book...

I have to go with Leo. But this was very close match, thank you again for entertainment.

Bleh, I already almost finished my explanation and I lost it. So here's a briefer version.

Both leo and Digi I felt did an excellent job using and countering obscure characters. So kudos to both. I felt the judging could have gone either way, but my decision was based on the following factors:

1) TP
I did not feel TP was a valid weapon for Luke. I felt leo successfully argued that force enabled TP did not work on sufficiently non-human brain structures (e.g. Hutts), and leo made it pretty clear that he was not going to be in a corporeal form during this matchup.

2) TK
Digi convinced me that TK could be effective against Shift. I also believe Luke's shields could keep Shift out, but the example used involved Luke taking a deep breath prior, which could pose a problem.

3) Illusions
If illusions worked on droids, I see no reason why they wouldn't work on Shift

4) Life sensing
I believe Luke could generally sense Shifts presence, but I'm unconvinced that he would be able to pin down all of Shift's molecules around him in a particularly helpful way.

5) Precog
Luke would be able to sense imminent danger, but would not necessarily be able to determine the exact form. leo successfully showed numerous ways for Shift to harm Luke

6) "TP Bomb"
I was not convinced this tactic would work on Luke.

There were some other points I won't bother mentioning. I feel both of you presented strong arguments proving that either could hurt the other enough to win, and that both could put up successful defenses. What I felt this match came down to was knowledge. Per the established rules...

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
3. Characters will not have knowledge of who they are fighting pre-fight. In battle, they will only be able to know things if the two characters already knew each other.

Without any prior knowledge, I felt Shift had a huge advantage, and would surely be the winner (I don't feel Luke would expect air to be able to hurt him before it would be too late). However from the opening strategy posts both leo and Digi kind of ignored this rule and argued based entirely on having prior knowledge. Now, there was an established prep time rule to learn about the opponent,

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
13*. ( Prep) You will receive a 5 minute briefing about your opponent. You cannot gather gear that would not be considered standard gear.

*Both Leo and Digi have opted not to use the prep time.

So what I've ultimately decided is to pretend this rule doesn't exist in my judgement, because that's consistent with how I feel the contestants argued. For that reason, my vote goes to Digi, as I believe (with knowledge) he could adequately defend himself long enough to use his TK/Lightsaber to disperse Shift for the forum win.

That said, I feel this is a 6/10 match swinging either way and was certainly not convincing either way.

i don't think i have ever questioned a judge's decision directly, but i'm not sure i understand cogito's vote. this part in particular confused me:

Without any prior knowledge, I felt Shift had a huge advantage, and would surely be the winner (I don't feel Luke would expect air to be able to hurt him before it would be too late). However from the opening strategy posts both leo and Digi kind of ignored this rule and argued based entirely on having prior knowledge.

how did i argue using prior knowledge? 😕

for that matter, how did digi? in fact, i actually submitted my opening BEFORE i even knew he had luke. (and digi did the same i think). i simply tried to come up with a generic opening that i thought would cover as many types of opponents as i could. again, digi did the same. i do agree with you--the lack of prior knowledge was an advantage for me, i said as much repeatedly in the match. i also don't understand why you felt it necessary to pretend a rule didn't exist. we willingly waived prep, AND thereby waived off any opportunity to gain prior knowledge of each other. i turned to gas as i thought that would be my best defense. digi threw up shields and used senses for the same reasons. no prior knowledge needed or demonstrated for that......

your vote will stay the same regardless, (what's layed is played!) i just really didn't understand what you were trying to say here is all.....

I'll be getting in my vote soon; Chicago Comic Con is crazy shit.

I will say that neither Leo nor Digi used prior knowledge in either of their OPs, both of which were PMed to me before they knew who was playing who.

This bout was weird and a headache to sift through, but in a good way. Upon getting both picks from Digi and Leo, I knew that this was going to be a strange match-up. Visually, if this were to happen in the pages of a comic book or in some form of film, this would be a battle to behold. Definitely a very imaginative bout to say the least.

I felt that the various Force powers - which are leagues above the stuff we see from Lucas' films - that Luke brings to the table give him great odds. Telepathy, offensive telekinises, enhanced physical attributes...the guy has a lot to work with against most humanoid foes. Problem with that is that Shift isn't all that human. Leo made great points concerning his TP defense and about how should he constantly change his structure, he could handle wading through most of Skywalker's attacks.

Ultimately, I feel that Luke is significantly more powerful than Shift, but due to how their powersets clash with one another, that fact in of itself doesn't mean much in the long run, which is why these tournaments are so interesting. I can see Luke prevailing against Shift but I can't see him doing it reliably especially in a "random encounter" so to speak. For that reason, I have to vote for Leo. Great match as I expected it would be, gents. Definitely walking away with a huge new level of respect and awe for the greatest Jedi Master ever, though. 👆

I'll have a vote in by the end of the day. Sorry to the two contestants who saw me post and thought I had a vote in - just got back from a trip to Miami for a friends wedding and I haven't slept in the past 23 hours.

edit: and dammit. Now my vote is all special as a tie-breaker. I'll make sure to read it for a 3rd time just to be sure I pick the right winner. You can send any digital bribes via PM to help ensure that I do.

You're both cheap. Digi, your netflix login info ? Leo, $10 on Amazon? My vote is obviously more important than that so I won't take any of your lame bribes into account.

Also, screw you both for making this such a hard match. I know a lot of people say they go back and forth a bunch, but I've been sitting here re-writing the last three paragraphs for the past 2 hours. Some versions have Digi winning, some have Leo winning.
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I don't believe telepathy will be a factor here. I don't believe that Luke will be able to find Shift specifically (but that he will sense the life force), nor do I believe that Shift's TP bombs will work in the form he has chosen. Neither do I believe illusions will be effective as Shift will be in a gaseous in-organic state. Luke might be powerful and he might be able to fool just about anyone else - but when a mind has no real state to it, I just can't see how he'd be able to focus the illusion on anything. And as Leo stated, he can see molecular structures. If illusions work, he can still see what is real from what is not.

Most of Luke's physical attacks won't really be consequential because Shift is already in a gaseous state. I don't believe the lightsaber will be of any great use.

So what does this match then rest on? Pre-Cog, Force Awareness, and TK Force pushes.

For most of the match, I had Leo winning. In a random encounter, I think that while Luke is more powerful but he wouldn't be expecting an airborne opponent. Luke has all these abilities, is much more powerful, and incredibly versatile, but it's a tactical situation - the one opponent that, while less powerful, could defeat Luke.

However, Digi posted more pre-cog evidence and the TK Force Tornado was brought up. It was only useful if he could actually utilize it though - and if he could properly distinguish what his pre-cog was telling him. Then I realized that he started Luke with shields up and that it might give him the moment he needs to use his other abilities. And that was probably the toughest part for me.

Do I believe that Shift can pass through the shield as air? Or do I believe that the shield blocks everything and leaves a pocket of air inside? No one gave me a sufficient answer, so I went looking into what exactly force barriers can do. Surprisingly, I didn't find my answer under Force Barrier (although they did have a showing of people pushing gas away with a barrier). I found it under Breath Control - which is what Digi was showing us that Luke could do earlier (in addition, Jedi can survive in that state for hours to days).

"This ability used independently, however, would not prevent anything entering or leaving the respiratory system of the user. In some cases, the user would require some kind of Force barrier in, or around the nose/throat region to keep poisonous gases or water out. The necessity of such a barrier would depend on the air/water pressure in the direct vicinity, and the user's ability to naturally seal their airways. This was a very effective ability in situations where the air was very thin, underwater, or in any environment with toxic fumes."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Breath_Control

I didn't care about the application itself, I cared about the ability of a force shield to block out air - and it can. Therefore I assume that Shift cannot get through the initial shield - and that was the deciding factor for me. If Shift had been able to, it would have been game over. The surprise attack was with him. With the shield up and Shift not being able to get in, I think Luke's awareness would be sufficient to tell him to Force Push the life form he is sensing around him. And while Shift is good at control of his form, going from gas to being pushed away, I don't see him reforming himself fast enough to be in the fight. In my mind, him being dispersed as a gas would be harder for him to reform from than him being dispersed as a solid - most of his matter would have been in one space and he'd be pulling back on it. With the gas, it's already spread out - it would be easy to spread out more.

So, I'm voting Digi.

Leo, as a contestant I often hear people say it was a "tough" match to judge, but I hope you know I really mean the sentiment. I think you are a great debater and I'm sorry to have voted against you twice now. I don't mind saying I never like facing you because I think you are insanely smart and much more clever than I am. Hope to see you beat the snot out of your next opponent.

Well, congrats to me. Leo, you're a sunovabitch. I wandered in with an obscure powerhouse and you negated a good portion of what I can do just by being weird. Kudos. I knew I had more power, but really expected to lose when you had reduced my debating to "well sh*t...I'll push him the **** around I guess!"

It's always weird knowing your opponent really well. Leo and I were PM'ing during the match and talking way more candidly about our chances than we ever would in the match itself.

Now nobody challenge me for like 2 months. I need rest.

uhuh

...

Also, a thanks to the judges. Despite the oddness of the match, I hope it was enjoyable.

surprised Digi didn't pull up book feat in Vong War where Luke pulled a black hole to destroy the ship (The Vong used black holes to drive their ships).... but that seems to be a bit out of the meta range by a fair amount.... Also there was the time during the Vong War where he reached Nirvana and achieved universal creamy oneness with the force. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Oneness

also defeated Aboleth and her bodies with some assistance http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Abeloth

ah well, nice job digi. i'll just have to start picking people i'm sure i can win with in the future, instead of people i just really want to use. still a cool match. nice job digi and thanks to the judges. 👆

Originally posted by leonidas
how did i argue using prior knowledge? 😕

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I will say that neither Leo nor Digi used prior knowledge in either of their OPs, both of which were PMed to me before they knew who was playing who.

I was referring primarily to the very beginning of leo's first [real] post, not the opening. In it, he [leo] already assumed knowledge of Luke's life sensing and TP and crafted a strategy based on how Luke (w/ his powers) would react.

Mostly I felt that Digi proved he could sense danger well enough to prepare a defense against leo's initial attack, after which I felt Digi further proved Luke could sufficiently harm Shift to get the win.

Very good BZ though 👆

Good match, agree with the judges decision.

Question: do future title defences require the use of the same champion character or just the same debator? If it's character does the challenger enter that match as an unknown with prior knowledge?

Stupid KMC. ... trying to suck me back in.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Good match, agree with the judges decision.

Question: do future title defences require the use of the same champion character or just the same debator? If it's character does the challenger enter that match as an unknown with prior knowledge?

Stupid KMC. ... trying to suck me back in.

Hahaha.

So far, it's been the same debater and character. But whoever faces the champion has to reveal their pick beforehand (as opposed to this match, where we both went in blind until the match was posted).

So there's a slight advantage to the challenger, because they get to draft already knowing who they're facing. But the champion still gets time to plan.

Yeah, big advantage, makes a successful defence more impressive though.

Also, unless waived by the champion, we give them at least a month after they win to challenge them for the title they hold.

But seeing as Digi just gave up his most time consuming job power as a global mod, I think he has some free time, right? 😛

Originally posted by Scoobless
Yeah, big advantage, makes a successful defence more impressive though.

There's no great way around it, unless you allow new draft picks for both, but then it sort of sullies the idea of a true "defense." It puts a premium on drafting those that can conceivably defend well against anyone. Smurph with God-Cable at mid herald is a good example. With any luck, Luke will be similar.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Also, unless waived by the champion, we give them at least a month after they win to challenge them for the title they hold.

But seeing as Digi just gave up his most time consuming job power as a global mod, I think he has some free time, right? 😛

Yes, yes, I know you want a crack at Luke with Tony. Ya'll can wait.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Good match, agree with the judges decision.

pfft. you would.

just come back already. i'll challenge you for low or mid meta. neither has seen action and, frankly, we really should go against each other one of the days...... sneer

Tempting.

But not yet, my computer is toast and typing posts by android phone takes way too long for a tourny match. Maybe after I shell out for some new tech though.

If we allowed Skyfather tier matches I have a guy I could challenge someone with...