"In these days sword fighting was not quite as sophisticated as it was during the height of the Jedi period. In this particular rendition Vader was half man half machine, Obi-Wan was pretty much an old man, and so this fight was a Hard fight for them, it wasn't a acrobatic and jump around fast fight, it was a kind of Hard fight to fight because they're both kind of Old Jedi."
George Lucas ANH Audio Commentary (play during the Lightsaber fight between Old Ben and Vader.)
I think it's pretty clear from that, that sword fighting is a lot harder for these 2 now, and neither of them are as fast or as mobile as they once were.
Still don't see that as saying they are weaker. Sure, he is saying it's more difficult for them fight now which makes sense, but simply because it's more difficult for them to fight doesn't mean they are necessarily less skilled. Same with him saying they aren't jumping around, that's true but, once again, doesn't necessitate them being weaker. Dooku, for example, isn't leaping around but he comes across as an even more deadly saber combatant than Kenobi same with mace Windu.
I like how that Lucas quote really shows how pathetically little Lucas really knows about swordplay.
Originally posted by NephthysKeep in mind that Dooku lost to Anakin not because Anakin was more skilled, but because Anakin outright overpowered him. I wouldn't put it past Marek to do the same.
Yet in lightsaber combat Dooku was an almost unparallelled prodigy. Galen is good, but recall that he had problems against Vader and Shaak Ti in that department.
Originally posted by NemeBroKeep in mind that Dooku lost to Anakin not because Anakin was more skilled, but because Anakin outright overpowered him. I wouldn't put it past Marek to do the same.
Galen doesn't have as much raw power at his diposal as Anakin did. And there's little evidence that he's anywhere near as effective a Sword fighter. (Especially when comparing to Zone Anakin).
Even during Clone Wars Anakin has consistently stalemated Count Dooku. Galen hasn't fought anyone who is known to be such a noteworthy Saber Duelist. On the contrary he has seriously struggled against far weaker opponents like Shaaki Ti.
Originally posted by NemeBro
I like how that Lucas quote really shows how pathetically little Lucas really knows about swordplay.Keep in mind that Dooku lost to Anakin not because Anakin was more skilled, but because Anakin outright overpowered him. I wouldn't put it past Marek to do the same.
Djem So is literally the antithesis of Makashi, and Dooku had never encountered a swordsman who had mastered Djem So to the degree of Skywalker so he was at a significant disadvantage. Marek on the other hand fights with Juyo and will have no such advantage given that Dooku used to spar with the foremost master of Juyo/Vaapad Mace Windu.
Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, let's just all forget the Shaak TI had the help of a mega-Sarlacc...
Yeah but let's not forget he also struggled against Kota.
The point stands. Galen's not beaten anyone even close to being as noteworthy a duelist as Count Dooku.
His claim to fame is beating Darth Vader(who himself lacks sufficient evidence to say how good a fencer he is) and he couldn't even do that in TFUII.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Djem So is literally the antithesis of Makashi, and Dooku had never encountered a swordsman who had mastered Djem So to the degree of Skywalker so he was at a significant disadvantage.
Nah Skywalker was just too powerful. And he knew full well how he fights, as he's fought him at least 3 times in the Clone Wars.
Originally posted by ares834
When is it suggested he struggled against Kota?
That's how I remember the novel and the comic. But I'll have to re-check. I remember him struggling in all his sword fights.
Originally posted by ares834
Regardless, his power increases greatly throughout the game.
Oh yeah I know that. His power increases 3 or 4 times in the story right up until he fights Sidious. But we still need Saber feats. We can't just assume that because his power increased that he can take Dooku in a Sword fight.
Originally posted by ares834
Also I've argued for Vader's sabers skills before bringing forth a plethora of examples that certainly put him within the Count's range (I'll look for them later).
Well I'd like to see them. But I doubt the evidence will be that convincing.
Count Dooku's been toe to toe with Yoda and has been stated to be at least a good a swordsman as Mace Windu.
I'd have a really hard time seeing Vader being above ROTS Kenobi in Sabers. And as of TFUII Galen is his equal.
Galen doesn't have as much raw power at his diposal as Anakin did.
In comparison Anakin with his slow pace training and constant Jedi restrain most of the time did as much as deflect blaster bolts and cut down droids.
Djem So is literally the antithesis of Makashi, and Dooku had never encountered a swordsman who had mastered Djem So to the degree of Skywalker so he was at a significant disadvantage. Marek on the other hand fights with Juyo and will have no such advantage given that Dooku used to spar with the foremost master of Juyo/Vaapad Mace Windu.
the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker
And yes it is still a dissadvantage but no martial art is perfect and Dooku demonstrated just that:
"He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance".
I still believe that Marek stomps, though. It's just I don't like weaker/stronger style idea.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah Skywalker was just too powerful. And he knew full well how he fights, as he's fought him at least 3 times in the Clone Wars.
Because Djem So is literally a Makashi user's worst nightmare. If a Makashi user of equal skill fought a Djem So user the Djem So user would win everytime. Dooku's only saving grace in AOTC was that he was simply a superior swordsman. The moment Anakin became a swordsman of his caliber he started to lose. And yeah everytime they fought in the Clone Wars Dooku beat him albeit with some difficulty.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because Djem So is literally a Makashi user's worst nightmare. If a Makashi user of equal skill fought a Djem So user the Djem So user would win everytime. Dooku's only saving grace in AOTC was that he was simply a superior swordsman. The moment Anakin became a swordsman of his caliber he started to lose. And yeah everytime they fought in the Clone Wars Dooku beat him albeit with some difficulty.