Sidious and his Apprentices vs Krayt and his Inner Circle
Sidious, Dooku, Vader, and Maul
Vs
Darth Krayt, Wyyrlok, Maladi, Nihl, Talon, and Stryfe
Sidious is his RotS version. Vader is armored. Krayt is post-rebirth, but Wyyrlok is still loyal.
Who wins?
In short, team 1 has three Force titans. I imagine team 2’s Force heavy hitters are Krayt and Wyyrlok...and I am not sure where to place those two on the power-scale.
I don’t recall anything that impressive from Wyyrlok (or any other member of the 2nd team for that matter, bar Krayt).
And even if post-rebirth Krayt is in RotS Sidious's league (Vader/Dooku’s league ?) I say this is not enough to deal with team 1.
Add Maul’s agility and mastery in saber combat and team 2 goes down.
I imagine team 2’s Force heavy hitters are Krayt and Wyyrlok...
Yes, definitely.
I don’t recall anything that impressive from Wyyrlok (or any other member of the 2nd team for that matter, bar Krayt).
Wyyrlok killed Darth Andeddu, and also was able to put up a good fight against resurrected Krayt in both sabers and the force (I should mention he's pretty much the *only* person in the series who holds his own against Krayt in sabers; he performs better than Cade does). He's really strong with force illusions, which is how he killed Andeddu, and he even temporarily got Krayt with one (though Krayt turned it on him).
Add Maul’s agility and mastery in saber combat and team 2 goes down.
I'll note that past vs debates here have generally given Talon the edge against Maul, and Nihl's at least as strong as her.
Maladi's good with force lightning and was able to stalemate Shado Vao, one of Legacy's best saber monkeys (Vao's in turn held off two of the Imperial Knight masters at the same time).
You have at least 3 people the same general level/a bit stronger than Maul, *not* counting Krayt or Wyyrlok.
Stryfe's the only one who I'd say loses to even Maul, but still, he's an extra blade with a reasonable amount of power.
My personal view is, Krayt's a bit below Sidious but still really powerful across the board, Wyyrlok is his 'Dooku,' but then he has 3 'Mauls' and one sub-Maul in his court.
Originally posted by Q99
Wyyrlok killed Darth Andeddu, and also was able to put up a good fight against resurrected Krayt in both sabers and the force (I should mention he's pretty much the *only* person in the series who holds his own against Krayt in sabers; he performs better than Cade does). He's really strong with force illusions, which is how he killed Andeddu, and he even temporarily got Krayt with one (though Krayt turned it on him).
I'll note that past vs debates here have generally given Talon the edge against Maul, and Nihl's at least as strong as her.
Maladi's good with force lightning and was able to stalemate Shado Vao, one of Legacy's best saber monkeys (Vao's in turn held off two of the Imperial Knight masters at the same time).
You have at least 3 people the same general level/a bit stronger than Maul, *not* counting Krayt or Wyyrlok.
Stryfe's the only one who I'd say loses to even Maul, but still, he's an extra blade with a reasonable amount of power.
My personal view is, Krayt's a bit below Sidious but still really powerful across the board, Wyyrlok is his 'Dooku,' but then he has 3 'Mauls' and one sub-Maul in his court.
Ok, so maybe lets break it down like this:
Sidious: as of RotS stated as “the most powerful Sith to exist” (this does not include Krayt, of course, but is quite telling about his power) Force lightning turns Sithworm to ash, TK strong enough to match Yoda’s, saber-wise he’s beating both Maul and Savage, besting Agen, Tiin and Fisto, matching Windu, matching Yoda.
Krayt: young Krayt matching post-RotS Kenobi in sabers (and later perhaps getting better with the blade), then being unmatched in his era. Hmm…from that scarce info I guess that Krayt is around RotS Obi-Wan level in sabers (if he got better) maybe even above that, but I’m quite sure he is not on, say, Dooku’s level.
Then we have Vader and Dooku…
I feel that Vader’s Force powers combined with Dooku’s saber-skill will wreak havoc among team two.
I can see either one of taking down Wyyrlok, while the other engages Nihl, Maladi and Talon.
Yeah, if Dooku can take 2 nightsisters and Ventress when drugged and blind, so I believe when in top shape the Count can take these three.
This leaves Maul taking down Stryfe, and quite handily. Then he will help out the one battling trio Nihl/Maladi/Talon.
Hmm…by that time the trio might start overwhelming Dooku/Vader, but Maul will jump in.
On the other hand, even though I don’t think Krayt or Wyyrlok can match Sidious, Vader or Dooku in combat, I wonder how their illusions will affect them.
I admit my outlook may be tainted by lack of info on team two, maybe they have feats eclipsing those of team one members?
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Could you list some of Talon’s and Nihl’s feats?
Talon killed Marasiah Fel's Imperial Knight master/bodyguard, and was Cade Skywalker's better in sabers, and his saber coach (for like the first half of the series, she consistently beat him in sabers. Even at the end, if she focused on being evasive she could escape him pretty easy, and she was a master at hiding her presence in the force). Here's her force power
Nihl solidly beat Wolf Sazen and cut off his arm and 'killed' him (Sazen being Cade and Shado's master. Cade used the return-from-the-dead power to save him), and killed Kol Skywalker. He also feels he can beat Talon and took over the mantle of Dark Lord after Krayt died (Wyyrlok having previously been killed in his duel with Krayt).
Both fight the top Imperial Knights and Jedi of the era repeatedly. Sometimes when outnumbered.
Krayt: young Krayt matching post-RotS Kenobi in sabers (and later perhaps getting better with the blade), then being unmatched in his era. Hmm…from that scarce info I guess that Krayt is around RotS Obi-Wan level in sabers (if he got better) maybe even above that, but I’m quite sure he is not on, say, Dooku’s level.
He also killed 4 Masters in like 3 seconds once, when he was old but pre-rebirth. Post rebirth? He gained Shatterpoints on top of that, and if he gets a single hand on someone he'll pour the force into them and kill them with said shatterpoints.
In the past, unarmed and recovering from torture, he took out the crew of a Vong ship.
And I'll note that RotS Obi-Wan did better in sabers against Anakin than Dooku did.
I'm not sure why that wouldn't put him above Dooku.
Post Rebirth I put him on the level of Unarmored Bane.
I can see either one of taking down Wyyrlok, while the other engages Nihl, Maladi and Talon.
Yeah, if Dooku can take 2 nightsisters and Ventress when drugged and blind, so I believe when in top shape the Count can take these three.
All three of 'em are quite a bit above Ventress, though.
Also, how about this?
Krayt vs Sidious until help arrives for Krayt
Wyyrlok and Maladi vs Dooku (Maladi's already shown herself good at backing people up with force lightning, and IMO it's better to overwhelm Dooku in the force)
Nihl and Stryfe vs Vader (focusing on simply delaying him)
Talon vs Maul
(Or switch up Talon and Nihl, either'll do)
That should give the One Sith the edge in each fight except for the king fight and the Vader fight (which'll at least take awhile), and Krayt's powerful enough to last a long time on his own.
Most significantly, it'd give a significant edge in the Dooku fight, and then free up Wyyrlok and Maladi to assist others.
This leaves Maul taking down Stryfe, and quite handily. Then he will help out the one battling trio Nihl/Maladi/Talon.
Stryfe should still take awhile. He's not on the level of the other three, but he's still fairly strong and good with force TK.
A sidenote I'll mention- the One Sith actually has a couple members I'd rate equal or above Stryfe in power (the chief Inquisitor, Darth Havok, who is stronger. Darth Azard, who's been put in charge of important operations. Possibly even Saarai, Wyyrlok's daughter and heir). I suspect he's in the inner circle because he's a good general and highly loyal, and good at keeping others in line.
Originally posted by Q99
Talon killed Marasiah Fel's Imperial Knight master/bodyguard, and was Cade Skywalker's better in sabers, and his saber coach (for like the first half of the series, she consistently beat him in sabers. Even at the end, if she focused on being evasive she could escape him pretty easy, and she was a master at hiding her presence in the force). Here's her force powerNihl solidly beat Wolf Sazen and cut off his arm and 'killed' him (Sazen being Cade and Shado's master. Cade used the return-from-the-dead power to save him), and killed Kol Skywalker. He also feels he can beat Talon and took over the mantle of Dark Lord after Krayt died (Wyyrlok having previously been killed in his duel with Krayt).
Both fight the top Imperial Knights and Jedi of the era repeatedly. Sometimes when outnumbered.
He also killed 4 Masters in like 3 seconds once, when he was old but pre-rebirth. Post rebirth? He gained Shatterpoints on top of that, and if he gets a single hand on someone he'll pour the force into them and kill them with said shatterpoints.
In the past, unarmed and recovering from torture, he took out the crew of a Vong ship.
And I'll note that RotS Obi-Wan did better in sabers against Anakin than Dooku did.
I'm not sure why that wouldn't put him above Dooku.
All three of 'em are quite a bit above Ventress, though.
Also, how about this?
Krayt vs Sidious until help arrives for Krayt
Wyyrlok and Maladi vs Dooku (Maladi's already shown herself good at backing people up with force lightning, and IMO it's better to overwhelm Dooku in the force)
Nihl and Stryfe vs Vader (focusing on simply delaying him)
Talon vs Maul
That should give the One Sith the edge in each fight except for the king fight and the Vader fight (which'll at least take awhile), and Krayt's powerful enough to last a long time on his own.
I see them stalling Dooku in the Force, though I’m not 100% sure about it. I am positive though that Dooku schools them in saber combat.
Well, you shouldn't be. Wyyrlok was able to hold his own against the best saber user in the galaxy, after said user gained shatterpoints. It's quite likely he's the second best saber user in the galaxy, and he is in much the same role as a Rule of Two sith ready to challenge their master. No-one can really be said to be 'definitely' better than Krayt and Wyyrlok (aside from, say, Luke, who can be said to be better than anyone), because they never met their betters in saber (save for K being better than W). Krayt was never even pushed hard in a saber duel, he just pushed back or slaughtered everyone but W. There's nothing that indicates the top legacy characters are any less good with a saber than the top saber users of other eras.
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And two-on-one, Wyyrlok and Maladi should overcome him in the force rather solidly. Wyyrlok's illusions are *very* hard to break through, and'll leave his foe vulnerable.
Wyyrlok vs Dooku is a good fight as-is, Wyyrlok + strong backup is too much.
Here, I would give clear advantage to Vader. He is simply to powerful. Remember how he rag-dolled Kota (Jedi who can rip a space station in half). I see that happening here to those two.
Hm, maybe switch this team with the Dooku team...
Wyyrlok does, after all, likely know Vader's psychological weaknesses, to put in his illusions.
In any case, even though Vader can handle Nihl and Stryfe, it'll take time, especially if he goes for sabers like he generally prefers to do, and Dooku's at least as screwed as Vader's opponents are.
I really don’t know about this one. Maul still stand in my mind as a badass saber duelist.
He's badass, but Talon is good with saber *and* has shown a lot more force power.
On Dooku's level vs Wyyrlok's and Krayt's-
Dooku's around top level with lightsabers. One step down is the level Obi-Wan, Anakin, and A'Sharad Hett were on, and as we've seen on numerous occasions that that level can put up a fight against Dooku, and if there's a power difference in the force/strength, can win.
Krayt's gotten some solid increases since he was Hett. Significant amounts of Sith training and experience, significant increases in power as well, plus he gained the ability to see shatterpoints. It's a sure thing that he's gone up a solid tier, easy.
And Wyyrlok's close to him at his max.
Krayt should be Sidious's and Bane's level, and Wyyrlok being not far behind... well, that puts him in Dooku's range.
IMO at least.
