Originally posted by ColossusGrundyIf Batman beating up or hurting metas is PIS, then his PIS is more consistent than most character's "averages"
You realize that without PIS, a HUMAN has NO chance against those two.Love bats or not, be realistic.
I love Z, but I know her limits.
Be realistic? This is comics. And realistic doesn't mean we should delete a strong majority of Batman's history, just because he has a "human label" attached to him. Human's don't bench well over a thousand pounds.
This is the guy who kicks trees in half. So human. And that's like a low feat for his kicks too...
See, the problem is that I guarantee you've brought up Zatanna's Starbreaker feat before. And that's like a stand alone feat. The feats I just shown? Not even close to his best, or strongest showings.
But if we ignore all his strength showings because he's a human, I bet this will prove to be a doozy to the characters in this thread:
http://imageshack.us/f/384/asdfaa3.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/167/asdfmt4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/141/asdfte3.jpg/
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
If Batman beating up or hurting metas is PIS, then his PIS is more consistent than most character's "averages"Be realistic? This is comics. And realistic doesn't mean we should delete a strong majority of Batman's history, just because he has a "human label" attached to him. Human's don't bench well over a thousand pounds.
This is the guy who kicks trees in half. So human. And that's like a low feat for his kicks too...See, the problem is that I guarantee you've brought up Zatanna's Starbreaker feat before. And that's like a stand alone feat. The feats I just shown? Not even close to his best, or strongest showings.
But if we ignore all his strength showings because he's a human, I bet this will prove to be a doozy to the characters in this thread:
http://imageshack.us/f/384/asdfaa3.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/167/asdfmt4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/141/asdfte3.jpg/
Actually I haven't brought up Starbreaker before, and I don't see a tree being anywhere near as tough as Colossus. Grenades would be shrugged off like flies.
You haven't made your point. Piotr or Ben get one hand on him and what Bane did looks like a greeting card.
Batman is a street lvl hero... hence he fights street level villains almost exclusively UNLESS he is with the JLA or there is serious PIS. He has no business fighting these caliber of heroes and I was extremely generous to give him wins on 1 and 2 and to split 3. He has NO chance against 4 and 5.
Originally posted by ColossusGrundyI'll have to take your word on that. However, I see you brought up Colossus KO'ing Hulk, which considering your stance on "All Batman's higher end feats are PIS" is rather odd to say the least.
Actually I haven't brought up Starbreaker before, and I don't see a tree being anywhere near as tough as Colossus. Grenades would be shrugged off like flies.You haven't made your point. Piotr or Ben get one hand on him and what Bane did looks like a greeting card.
Batman is a street lvl hero... hence he fights street level villains almost exclusively UNLESS he is with the JLA or there is serious PIS. He has no business fighting these caliber of heroes and I was extremely generous to give him wins on 1 and 2 and to split 3. He has NO chance against 4 and 5.
I never said a tree was. However, a human does not kick down full trees. It goes against your "Human" line, like it's supposed to mean something here.
Colossus and Thing are shrugging off grenades that blew off the General's arm?
OK. That certainly disproves my point.
Batman would certainly be helpless if they grabbed him...
http://imageshack.us/f/510/asdfye8.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/357/asdfvl0.jpg/
No he doesn't. Poison Ivy, Clayface, Grundy, the odd super powered person thrown in, etc. Just because Batman deals with regular powered people, doesn't mean he should be limited to that, when a chunk of his rogue gallery goes against that theory in the first place. You can't limit someone to their enemies, otherwise Superman Toyman/Lex is starting to look inviting.
See, the problem is, is that Batman has feats of taking on this level of being... numerous, numerous feats, but we're supposed to turn a blind eye to that because OMG he's a human?
How does that make sense? What his species is takes precedence over what he's done? And what does PIS say about someone who's built a sizable track record over not only doing well against people "out of his league", but winning? You can cry PIS till the cows come home and get turned into delicious food, but at the end of the day, you're completely ignoring a good chunk of his career, but hey, as long as he's human it's alright if he's not allowed "high feats" on the forums.
EDIT: Also, Karate Kid is human.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I'll have to take your word on that. However, I see you brought up Colossus KO'ing Hulk, which considering your stance on "All Batman's higher end feats are PIS" is rather odd to say the least.I never said a tree was. However, a human does not kick down full trees. It goes against your "Human" line, like it's supposed to mean something here.
Colossus and Thing are shrugging off grenades that blew off the General's arm?
OK. That certainly disproves my point.
Batman would certainly be helpless if they grabbed him...
http://imageshack.us/f/510/asdfye8.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/357/asdfvl0.jpg/No he doesn't. Poison Ivy, Clayface, Grundy, the odd super powered person thrown in, etc. Just because Batman deals with regular powered people, doesn't mean he should be limited to that, when a chunk of his rogue gallery goes against that theory in the first place. You can't limit someone to their enemies, otherwise Superman Toyman/Lex is starting to look inviting.
See, the problem is, is that Batman has feats of taking on this level of being... numerous, numerous feats, but we're supposed to turn a blind eye to that because OMG he's a human?
How does that make sense? What his species is takes precedence over what he's done? And what does PIS say about someone who's built a sizable track record over not only doing well against people "out of his league", but winning? You can cry PIS till the cows come home and get turned into delicious food, but at the end of the day, you're completely ignoring a good chunk of his career, but hey, as long as he's human it's alright if he's not allowed "high feats" on the forums.EDIT: Also, Karate Kid is human.
excellent post
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I'll have to take your word on that. However, I see you brought up Colossus KO'ing Hulk, which considering your stance on "All Batman's higher end feats are PIS" is rather odd to say the least.I never said a tree was. However, a human does not kick down full trees. It goes against your "Human" line, like it's supposed to mean something here.
Colossus and Thing are shrugging off grenades that blew off the General's arm?
OK. That certainly disproves my point.
Batman would certainly be helpless if they grabbed him...
http://imageshack.us/f/510/asdfye8.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/357/asdfvl0.jpg/No he doesn't. Poison Ivy, Clayface, Grundy, the odd super powered person thrown in, etc. Just because Batman deals with regular powered people, doesn't mean he should be limited to that, when a chunk of his rogue gallery goes against that theory in the first place. You can't limit someone to their enemies, otherwise Superman Toyman/Lex is starting to look inviting.
EDIT: Also, Karate Kid is human.
I see your point on what you're saying, but without a lot of PIS he has no chance. I wouldn't give most street level heroes a chance with the same type of feats. The thing with most of that rogue's gallery is that Batman knows they have an "Achilles' heel" of some sort. Clayface's powers have a limit and he is very vulnerable to freezing, and chemical attacks. Ivy's strength is her sexuality and her weakness is her confidence in it.... etc.
That's exactly why I would give Bats a win over Strong Guy, he would find a way to exploit Guido's weakness. The problem with Thing and Colossus is that neither of them have such "Achilles' heels". Does Bats have some great feats, sure... but most of his victories over villains like Killer Croc, Bane, and his upper-tier foes have to do with his knowledge of them and their shortcomings, NOT the idea that he can beat them down.
BTW, the Colossus KO'ing Hulk reference i was thinking of was X-men vs Hulk, when he used his Judo to do it, no the other instances.
Originally posted by ColossusGrundySo, we should ignore his feats because not only is he a human, but he's supposed to be put on some sort of level that a good chunk of his history proves he can eclipse?
I see your point on what you're saying, but without a lot of PIS he has no chance. I wouldn't give most street level heroes a chance with the same type of feats. The thing with most of that rogue's gallery is that Batman knows they have an "Achilles' heel" of some sort. Clayface's powers have a limit and he is very vulnerable to freezing, and chemical attacks. Ivy's strength is her sexuality and her weakness is her confidence in it.... etc.That's exactly why I would give Bats a win over Strong Guy, he would find a way to exploit Guido's weakness. The problem with Thing and Colossus is that neither of them have such "Achilles' heels". Does Bats have some great feats, sure... but most of his victories over villains like Killer Croc, Bane, and his upper-tier foes have to do with his knowledge of them and their shortcomings, NOT the idea that he can beat them down.
BTW, the Colossus KO'ing Hulk reference i was thinking of was X-men vs Hulk, when he used his Judo to do it, no the other instances.
And how does PIS work in the case of him having so many feats on that level. Is it still PIS if it's nigh a constant in upper level fights?
And Grundy? What's his achilles? Getting hit in the face?
But even the weakness angle doesn't account for your previous statement of the level of his rogues. Nor does it account for 100% of the fights he's had against them.
As well as it doesn't answer Batman, you know, actually beating down or hurting super powered people.
Speaking of achilles, seeing as how Thing got dropped by electricity and Batman gets time to study all of them for strengths and weaknesses...
Colossus, I'll admit doesn't really have a "weakness", and since I'm NOT allowed to use feats of Batman hurting vastly more durable beings than him, I'll say he loses here, but he can certainly beat Thing, even devoid of any of his physical feats.
I know about the Hulk example. I was the first one to post it on this forum I believe. Again, you have no problem bringing up the most powerful person Colossus has beaten, yet you have difficulty accepting numerous numerous showings from Batman? How is that fair?
Also, this is ignoring Batman's speed feats as well... but I guess that's consistent with what we're supposed to do with Batman. Just ignore what's he's done, so I'm doing a bang up job there.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So, we should ignore his feats because not only is he a human, but he's supposed to be put on some sort of level that a good chunk of his history proves he can eclipse?
You know it's funny, most fights are decided by feats, but not in Batman, or even Cap's case. And it's not like they lack feats to contend with 90% of the people they are put up against, oh no, they have that in spades, it's that they lose threads because of a label attached to them. Peak Human, human. What do those mean when lesser feats from them have them kicking trees in half, and flipping cars over? They aren't allowed suspension of disbelief? We're supposed to take the talk of them being "human" over their feats?
Again I'll bring up Karate Kid. A regular human who's pretty much accepted as being on a meta to herald level. What's your explanation on him? Does he just not exist because his whole history shouldn't count?And how does PIS work in the case of him having so many feats on that level. Is it still PIS if it's nigh a constant in upper level fights?
And Grundy? What's his achilles? Getting hit in the face?
But even the weakness angle doesn't account for your previous statement of the level of his rogues. Nor does it account for 100% of the fights he's had against them.
As well as it doesn't answer Batman, you know, actually beating down or hurting super powered people.Speaking of achilles, seeing as how Thing got dropped by electricity and Batman gets time to study all of them for strengths and weaknesses...
Colossus, I'll admit doesn't really have a "weakness", and since I'm [b]NOT
allowed to use feats of Batman hurting vastly more durable beings than him, I'll say he loses here, but he can certainly beat Thing, even devoid of any of his physical feats.I know about the Hulk example. I was the first one to post it on this forum I believe. Again, you have no problem bringing up the most powerful person Colossus has beaten, yet you have difficulty accepting numerous numerous showings from Batman? How is that fair?
Also, this is ignoring Batman's speed feats as well... but I guess that's consistent with what we're supposed to do with Batman. Just ignore what's he's done, so I'm doing a bang up job there. [/B]
As far as Grundy, there's no way Bats could have taken on the incarnation that dropped Supes and nearly beat the entire JLA. The Colossus KO'ing Hulk feat was a demonstration of power and fighting ability only. The complete point is that the most powerful villain Bats has been able to drop without PIS pales in comparison to Colossus or Ben. It has nothing to do with fairness, they have different levels of strength, durability, fighting styles, etc. If you can't admit Batman and Thing are on different levels, then you're too emotionally attached to the Bat.
Originally posted by ColossusGrundyAnd if he did... we'd just ignore it right? So it makes no difference what sort of Grundy it was.
As far as Grundy, there's no way Bats could have taken on the incarnation that dropped Supes and nearly beat the entire JLA. The Colossus KO'ing Hulk feat was a demonstration of power and fighting ability only. The complete point is that the most powerful villain Bats has been able to drop without PIS pales in comparison to Colossus or Ben. It has nothing to do with fairness, they have different levels of strength, durability, fighting styles, etc. If you can't admit Batman and Thing are on different levels, then you're too emotionally attached to the Bat.
But when I show consistent showings of power and skill from Batman, it's meant to be ignored? Something's off here.
Colossus is allowed his highest feat, yet Batman's not allowed "high feats" in general, because they go against his species.
But of course it pales in comparison when we base Batman's wins purely based on him being pink and having a fleshy bone, not what's he done.
Actually, on that note, what is allowed from Batman here? What can he do when we ignore what he's uh... done?
The fairness was relatively rhetorical. I meant to say we're supposed to be hypocritical with high end feats for any character as long as they aren't "human".
Again, Batman is apparently not allowed to have feats that outdo his species with strength, durability, or fighting styles, so I'm not sure why you brought that up. Funnily enough, Batman's armor again has feats of him taking shots from beings quite a ways above Thing and Colossus pretty well, but alas, all PIS.
See, that's the problem here. You say I'm emotionally attached, yet I'm the only one who's posted actual feats. Is emotionally attached using comics as evidence of something, or is emotionally attached having your name attached to a character, writing off every single one of Batman's high feats because well human/street level, while bringing up the character's - said username is attached to - highest feat? My argument is grounded in comics. Yours is based in Batman being a human.
Emotionally attached.
Originally posted by ColossusGrundyYes. I don't mind debating people who are civil, and not acting completely stupid. It's why I actually enjoy debating Leo, and Galan for one, while the thought of even trying to discuss things with h1 disgusts me.
I like debating you, it's not personal and it's been fun.I still think Bats highest non-PIS feat is going to be on the level of beating the weak Solomon Grundy and such.
Doesn't rank high enough IMO.
Meh, Batman's feats are subjective as this debate has proven.
If you ignore his higher history (IE, anything that could put him above human), then he loses every fight. If you mix the two to form some sort of Bat average, or Batverage if you will... he can really compete with anyone in this thread even if he fights like a brute.
It's all about the way you look at him, since he certainly doesn't lack the feats (him having feats that dwarf Thing/Colossus for example). I don't want to go down the full on "High feats only" route with him, but I'm not going to ignore them either.
I think Colossus is going to be tough to put down regardless, so I'll concede at him. I see Thing as going down to gadgets more often than not, and even Batman's "normal" feats if you will have him showing the ability to beat Luke. If we pull in Bendis, then we can't ignore Batman's "higher feats" IMO, so it balances out.
Originally posted by The Sorrow
I don't see how he gets past 2 😕
Originally posted by Robtard
link
marvel is fracked up royally
Originally posted by Galan007
Once Batman's leg starts moving, no force in existence can stop it.
damn straight
