Breaking Bad

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
"Walt was second handedly responsible for this incident because of his second hand involvement in the death of Jane. This ultimately culminated the results of Donald Margolis feeling grief-stricken and accidentally giving wrong instructions for the incident to occur."
http://breakingbad.wikia.com/wiki/Wayfarer_515

"The second season ends with Donald, an air traffic controller, making a mistake at his job due to his despair over Jane's death. From his home, Walter watches two commercial airplanes crash into each other, unaware that he is indirectly responsible for it."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_White_(Breaking_Bad)

Vince Gilligan agrees with me:

"So what's the point of the ending, in your mind? Why is judgment falling from the sky onto Walt?

In simple terms, we just wanted a giant moment of showmanship to end the season. And what better way than to have a rain of fire coming down around our protagnoist's ears, sort of like the judgment of God? It seemed like a big showmanship moment, and to visualize, in one fell swoop, all the terrible grief that Walt has wrought upon his loved ones, and the community at large.

And it could seem like a deus ex machina moment, but of course Walt has created that moment by letting Jane die and sending her father over the edge.

In that moment, at the end of season two, he doesn't realize it, but he's responsible for the whole world figuratively coming to an end around him. It's not deus ex machina, there's another term we were talking about, Lucifer ex machina, "Devil from the machine" -- it's the opposite. It almost could feel kind of random, but it's not. It's a butterfly effect. All these gears have been turning, this particular outcome was stuff Walt put into motion a long time ago by choosing to cook crystal meth."

http://sepinwall.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/breaking-bad-vince-gilligan-post.html

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

And Mike used to work for Gus.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

Incorrect again, good sir.
YouTube video

YouTube video

YouTube video

Walt merely adopted the dark, Gus was born in it.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Which is the crucial difference here. Mike knew that Gus was the boss, he never treated Walter that way because Walt wasn't.

And because of that, Mike ultimately pays the price.

I'll admit, Gus is better at being a "Crime Lord" than Walt but I really don't see him as being leaps and bounds better. Not to mention he has been doing it for years.

Walt's a very convincing "beginner" crime lord. Gus is the convincing "seasoned" crime lord. Walt's character is very believable as becoming someone just as ruthless and efficient at running a criminal underworld as Gus is. The difference between the two, as the show has gone to great length to demonstrate, is that Walt has obvious weaknesses and liabilities. His family has been his motivation the entire time (mostly), to the extent that Gus threatening them forced Walt to act drastically. Walt also overreacted in the heat of the moment when Mike refused to give any names, letting his emotion cloud judgement. Gustavo made errors, but we never saw a lapse in judgement so severe from him.

As long as there's a deep emotional connection between Walt's character and others, he'll never be able to successfully establish and run a criminal empire, at least a well or as long as Gus did. He's even gone out of his way to protect and keep Jesse close. There's upward of 6 people (maybe nit Hank anymore) that matter to Walt and will alter how he acts/behaves, for good or bad. That's 6 more than Gustavo had (after what's his face died).

And all that is part of what makes Walt such an amazing character, and the evolution of that intricate dynamic is wonderfully done.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
What does linking a few random wiki pages prove? And Gillian is talking in a more generic tone about all the poor choices Walt made throughout the series. His main point is that everything in his life collapsed once he entered the crystal meth business. That doesn't disprove my point: that other factors every bit as relevant(if not more so) were involved in the air crash, and putting the blame solely on Walt is the wrong way to go. His guilt should logically stop at Jane.

Again, these don't prove anything. The show made it clear that next to Gus, Walt was just a big b1tch. Gus is leaps and bounds above Walt. Walt will never be the new Gus Fring as Mike rightfully put it so.

They prove his genius and badassery which you disputed.
That 'big *****' did what so many others in time had failed to do...and killed Gus. He didn't so 'leapy and boundy' when Walt was done with him. Gus and Mike are both dead...killed by Walt.

Originally posted by Mindset
Walt merely adopted the dark, Gus was born in it.

Gus adopted it as well. Who's to say Gus would have turned out the way he did if Don Eladio had not killed his "brother". Nothing is known about his life in Chile to suggest he was already the way he was. The same way Walt and Jesse went to Gus was pretty much the same way Gus and Max went to Eladio.

Originally posted by Darth Vicious
Gus adopted it as well. Who's to say Gus would have turned out the way he did if Don Eladio had not killed his "brother". Nothing is known about his life in Chile to suggest he was already the way he was. The same way Walt and Jesse went to Gus was pretty much the same way Gus and Max went to Eladio.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Walt's a very convincing "beginner" crime lord. Gus is the convincing "seasoned" crime lord. Walt's character is very believable as becoming someone just as ruthless and efficient at running a criminal underworld as Gus is. The difference between the two, as the show has gone to great length to demonstrate, is that Walt has obvious weaknesses and liabilities. His family has been his motivation the entire time (mostly), to the extent that Gus threatening them forced Walt to act drastically. Walt also overreacted in the heat of the moment when Mike refused to give any names, letting his emotion cloud judgement. Gustavo made errors, but we never saw a lapse in judgement so severe from him.

As long as there's a deep emotional connection between Walt's character and others, he'll never be able to successfully establish and run a criminal empire, at least a well or as long as Gus did. He's even gone out of his way to protect and keep Jesse close. There's upward of 6 people (maybe nit Hank anymore) that matter to Walt and will alter how he acts/behaves, for good or bad. That's 6 more than Gustavo had (after what's his face died).

And all that is part of what makes Walt such an amazing character, and the evolution of that intricate dynamic is wonderfully done.

I'd agree. Walt also has another apparent Achilles heel, his pride.

Originally posted by Darth Vicious
Gus adopted it as well. Who's to say Gus would have turned out the way he did if Don Eladio had not killed his "brother". Nothing is known about his life in Chile to suggest he was already the way he was. The same way Walt and Jesse went to Gus was pretty much the same way Gus and Max went to Eladio.

Well I don't think Jesse is going to turn Walt in...yet, but I think he's going to find out about Brock's poisoning. God can;t imagine what's going to happen if/when he finds out about Jane, which Walt could tell him in one of his "I am the danger!" speeches.

I'm hoping that Walt tells Hank he is the danger, and Hank tells Walt he is the law.

I was visibly startled when the episode ended. I love being that engrossed in a show. I look forward to not feeling that as I go to watch Dexter.

Another great episode..this series shows no sign of pussying out whatsoever. None.

Holy shit the preview for next week sounds intense...!!

Spoiler:
Sounds like Saul is desperate and his life may be in danger, judging by the audiobite. Sounds like a confrontation taking place outside. As does the Jesse dialogue.

That opening scene with both Walt and Hank trying to reach Skyler was amazingly tense. I loved it. I'm kind of hoping Skyler doesn't bite it now considering that she could have easily wrecked Walt's shit but didn't.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Attacking the source to avoid addressing the fact that others se it that way isn't always wise. Its clear that others regard Walt as being responsible, including the creator of the show.

No. Gilligan is referring to Walt's responsibility for 515.
Of course other factors are relevant in this "butterfly effect", but none so much as Walt. Look at it this way: The windscreen would go on to have lots of other cracks snake their way across it, but Walt was the original stone that chipped it, causing the crack..

And as noted above by Ares, Mike is dead because of it.

They prove his genius and badassery which you disputed.
That 'big *****' did what so many others in time had failed to do...and killed Gus. He didn't so 'leapy and boundy' when Walt was done with him. Gus and Mike are both dead...killed by Walt.

Mike is dead because Walt failed to realize it soon enough that he could have gotten the names of those witnesses from Lydia. The difference is that Mike respected and feared Gus, while he never did so with Walt.

I never disputed his genius but he's certainly no badass. A selfish coward who lies and manipulates even to those who are closest to him, that's what Walter White is, not Gustavo Fring II.

The Pirate King, Walter D White! Before they executed him, his words inspired a new generation of meth traders. "My treasure is yours for the taking, if you can find it. I left everything I own in one piece!"

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I am not attacking the source though. And honestly speaking, it does appear that he's talking in a more generic tone.

Mike is dead because Walt failed to realize it soon enough that he could have gotten the names of those witnesses from Lydia. The difference is that Mike respected and feared Gus, while he never did so with Walt.

I never disputed his genius but he's certainly no badass. A selfish coward who lies and manipulates even to those who are closest to him, that's what Walter White is, not Gustavo Fring II.

But tone aside he was addressing Walt's being responsible for 515.

And Walt was smart enough to capitalise on that and kill Mike.
Something so many had tried to do before and failed.

His badassery has been seen. Have a look at the clips I provided. Not all badassery is in neccesarily in Rambo-ic form.
Well he certainly (going back to my original point) was emulating Gus when talking to Lydia last week.

There was nothing smart about Walt killing Mike nor was it to get the names. He killed him out of pure spite and anger over someone who he feels should respect and be grateful to him insulting him instead. If he'd really wanted the names he wouldn't have immediately shot him like he did, which would only guarantee he wouldn't get them. Like in the last episode with Hank he was walking away before thinking **** it and gives into his base impulses and emotions.

And that is why he is no Gus Fring.

Mike was a walking nightmare as an adversary, very cautious and experienced and Walt getting the drop on him took some doing.

No it didn't, he literally just walked up to him in anger and shot him.

The last thing that Mike would have expected from Walt, the man he wasn't scared of and didn't respect. He was under Mike's cosh for seasons; Smart is very dumb style sometimes and timing is everything. Walt capitalised when the tiem was 'right'.
How he got rid of almost everyone else including Gus was more classy/chessy though.