Originally posted by NotAllThatEvilRaditz? what quantifiable strenght feats does Raditz have?
It occurs to me that I may not be as up to date on naruto as I thought I was. I've been assuming his strength maxes out around raditz level. Am i close?
nevermind, let's leave DBZ outta this altogether.
Naruto has 100+ ton strength.
You rang?
To start there are no godly entities in DB. But anyhow, lets see...
Speed;
Ben's speedsters are as fast as Kid Goku before the Red Ribbon Army. [<Mach 5]
Nartuto's modes are around Tao's speed, or Goku after the RR army. [~Mach 10]
Strength;
Ben's muscle and Naruto's modes are physically as strong as Goku at the start of DBZ [Large building]
Way Big is physically stronger than anyone in DB for being able to throw an equal sized Vilgax (15,000~ tons?) into space. [Town+]
The Garbage monster doesn't count as it wasnt thrown into the Sun. Waybig ran to create a vortex the lifted the monster into space, in the direction of the Sun.
Energy strength;
Ben's powers reach up to Goku before the King Piccolo saga. [City block]
Sage!Naruto is at Goku during the King Piccolo saga [Town level] and Kyubii!Naruto is at the level of Goku at the start of DBZ. [Mountain]
Basically Ben's best aliens get him to around Kid Goku when he's fighting Tien, Kyuubi!Naruto would be around Goku between DB and DBZ.
@ BloodRain: So... Roshi blew up the moon, but Goku at the beginning of Z is only a mountain buster? Also, Kid Goku dodged punches from Tien that were faster than light, and he moved faster than solar flare when it was shooting, that is literally light, so it's light speed. Raditz accidentally destroyed a mountain by flinging a small ki blast a bit off-course. Anyone at Raditz level rapes all the ben 10 aliens and Naruto characters.
Also, (not to just BloodRain) Alien X doesn't have universal abilities, all he's done(to my knowledge) is fix an exploding dam. That's not much of anything. I bet even if the masks agreed during the whole fight, they couldn't hurt Jyuubito, or even normal MS Obito, let alone the FTL accidental mountain busting and casual moon busting(according to power scaling) Raditz.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaHes got a point
@ BloodRain: So... Roshi blew up the moon, but Goku at the beginning of Z is only a mountain buster? Also, Kid Goku dodged punches from Tien that were faster than light, and he moved faster than solar flare when it was shooting, that is literally light, so it's light speed. Raditz accidentally destroyed a mountain by flinging a small ki blast a bit off-course. Anyone at Raditz level rapes all the ben 10 aliens and Naruto characters.Also, (not to just BloodRain) Alien X doesn't have universal abilities, all he's done(to my knowledge) is fix an exploding dam. That's not much of anything. I bet even if the masks agreed during the whole fight, they couldn't hurt Jyuubito, or even normal MS Obito, let alone the FTL accidental mountain busting and casual moon busting(according to power scaling) Raditz.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaOutlier. Recall that Roshi needed his 100% max form in his attempt to put out the mountain flames, saying he went a bit too far when destroying it. You don't find it strange how his could go use his base form with something far larger?
@ BloodRain: So... Roshi blew up the moon, but Goku at the beginning of Z is only a mountain buster? Also, Kid Goku dodged punches from Tien that were faster than light, and he moved faster than solar flare when it was shooting, that is literally light, so it's light speed. Raditz accidentally destroyed a mountain by flinging a small ki blast a bit off-course. Anyone at Raditz level rapes all the ben 10 aliens and Naruto characters.Also, (not to just BloodRain) Alien X doesn't have universal abilities, all he's done(to my knowledge) is fix an exploding dam. That's not much of anything. I bet even if the masks agreed during the whole fight, they couldn't hurt Jyuubito, or even normal MS Obito, let alone the FTL accidental mountain busting and casual moon busting(according to power scaling) Raditz.
No lightspeed. No. The solar flare argument is broken and the punch is ridiculous.
It was in an Omniverse episode, can't remember the name so will just roughly describe the event; There is a universal bomb about to go off for some plot reasons, so Ben in desperation (or accidentally) becomes Alien X to stop it. For obvious reasons nothing happens due to the other personalities leading the destruction of the entire universe.. besides Alien X who is just floating around in nothingness, completely unaffected by the bomb. After some convincing the decision is set, and Alien X recreates the universe back to how it was.
Thats both universal power and durability. Meaning nothing in Naruto or Dragonball could destroy Alien X, who could sit there tanking everything until a decision is made.
Do you even know what the word "outlier" means? It means something that happens outside of the cannon(at least when referring to series). Roshi blew up the moon in the 100% cannon manga. He didn't exert hardly any effort when destroying that mountain, and in fact, as you said, accidentally put in too much power and destroyed the mountain.
Explain how the solar flare argument is broken. Is it because you can't admit that someone other than your favorite character is faster than light? What about the light speed punch? All you said is that it's "ridiculous".
Since when is Omniverse cannon? As far as I know, nearly everyone that watches it claims that it isn't even cannon to the franchise. Using the DBZ anime, King Vegeta destroyed 3 planets by waving his hand, and Buuhan was able to destroy the multiverse by screaming. In that case, alien X gets obliterated by anyone stronger than Buu screaming.
Even still, alien X is completely useless because he can't even move unless Ben convinces the masks to make it move. Even then, alien X couldn't stop the universal bomb from destroying the universe, as stated by the male mask(I forget his name), and the one he created had flaws and did slightly differ from the original. Not only that, but alien X is not omnipotent. Omnipotent means "All powerful", meaning there is only ONE omnipotent being that can exist, because it is the most powerful thing there is. There are hundreds of celestial sapiens, so it contradicts the idea of omnipotence with its very existence.
If you look in the DBZ wiki, it states that Akira Toriyama intended Whiss to be the absolute power in the DBZ universe, being able to destroy the universe and re-create it perfectly in an instant. Without that though, and getting back on topic, Naruto would defeat any Ben 10 alien with the exception of alien X, who rivals Whiss in what we have seen/heard from the two's creational abilities. However, alien X is still nowhere near DBZ level destruction or resilience, considering Vegetto stopped Buu from destroying the multiverse with shear power, and Bills was said by Akira Toriyama to be stronger than anyone in the series of DBZ, except Whiss, before the 10 year timeskip.
..noo, what you're describing is non-canon. An outlier is when a feat happens that is far beyond what should be the norm. Eg 100% form to mountain bust, only to normally moon bust. Among many examples.
Lol so Ben is my favorite character now? You sad little imp. Timeframe, movement scans at what point, the obvious scaling fail that comes from it etc. And the punch? Mostly mostly the same things as above, iirc it was a translation issue.
Since when was it not canon? Have yet to see any quotes or statements on that. The anime is non-canon so I need not worry, but, that universal scream was a chain reaction from forming a technical tear. Doesnt make his power output universal. And lol who said anything about omnipotents? Who cares if there were any flaws, still created an entire universe.. So yes, more durability and power than anything Dragonball has to offer.
Would like to see the Weiss universal claim.
In the Kanzentan, it explains that base roshi used a super kamehameha to destroy the moon, and used normal kamehameha wave to try putting out the flames on Mt. Fryingpan. You don't understand that Roshi wasn't putting his all into his kamehameha wave against the flames, but used max power form to increase his control, but still ended up accidentally destroying the whole mountain.
The Daizenshuu was translated into english from the original japanese scripts, and you can actually look up most of them on google. The Kanzentai is also one of those DBZ encyclopedia's, but it solely describes techniques use in the series. It described Tien's light speed fist, as "a technique where the user builds up ki in their muscles and shoots it forward so the arms follow, making the fist move as fast as ki which can be manipulated to move faster than light!".
How is the DBZ anime non-cannon? The DBZ anime was made the way Akira Toriyama wanted it to be. The only thing that was non-cannon was the english dub, which was still correct for most things besides about three translation errors. If Akira Toriyama didn't want to make Broly, he wouldn't have, but he in fact said in Otaku magazine that Broly was one of his favorite characters. Since he made him, and wrote the drafts for the Broly movie, Broly is at least as cannon as Garlic Jr.
So what if it was a chain reaction? If he would have destroyed the multiverse by screaming, HE WOULD HAVE DESTROYED THE MULTIVERSE BY SCREAMING. Why not just say that Galactus fighting with Infinity and Eternity wouldn't have destroyed the multiverse because it would have collapsed it and caused a chain reaction? Why not say that Superman chasing Supergirl wouldn't have destroyed the universe, because it would have only done so as a chain reaction? That's completely undermining and blowing off the power of characters just because of your preference.
Whiss stated that Bills can destroy quadrants just by getting angry. THAT IS 1/4TH OF THE DBZ UNIVERSE. The universe in DBZ is explained in the Daizenshuu as divided into four quadrants that are equivalent to about 100 billion galaxies each. Bills is able to destroy a quadrant, about 100 billion galaxies, JUST by getting mad. Bills said Whiss created the 7th universe and the god tree, that spawns kai's. While creation has nothing to do with the destruction aspect of power, all of the Buu's were claimed to be universal threats, and Bills one-shotted Buu for eating all the pudding. Whiss knocked Bills out for three years with A NECK CHOP(Dragon ball Nam reference, lol).
Also, it wasn't a "universal scream", Old Kai said that Buu screaming would destroy "all of creation", not just the universe. While I admit that the feat of surviving a universal explosion and creating a new, similar universe IS very respectable, it simply isn't as great as nearly destroying the multiverse with a scream. Goku and Grand Kai said that fat Janemba's pure power was able to destroy the whole universe, and SSJ3 Goku curbstomped him until he went super. Also, Goku can take more punishment than he can dish out, as seen when he shot a full power kamehameha around king kai's planet, and flicked it away without getting hurt by it at all.
One last thing. How is creating a universe a display of power? Iirc, there were two pokemon who created the universe, but their battle didn't even destroy a town because their blasts were so weak. They were probably weaker than Raquaza. Just creating a universe doesn't mean you're unstoppable, considering the fact that the supposed god of pokemon who created the two that made the universe, nearly got killed by an asteroid and got hurt by Pikachu...
So no, while Alien X is admittedly powerful, he falls short of DBZ.
I just sad he destroyed the mountain, with full force form.
Because its iirc tertiary canon, the manga being primary. Lemme just get this out of the way now; are you believing that every single character above that budokai is FTL based on the name off an attack?
No. Making tears in reality are unquantifiable feats in terms of power. Sure you can comment on the effects of said tear, but the force needed to tear it cant be pegged and in this case is highly useless in a fight. Why? Because Buu cannot actually harm anyone with that scream. The only attack would come from the eventual rip of the 'verse, which would also destroy Buu.
"it states that Akira Toriyama intended Whiss to be the absolute power in the DBZ universe, being able to destroy the universe and re-create it perfectly in an instant." I was asking about this line of yours. Link to that, also tothere being 100 billions of galaxies in each quadrant. This is strange because everyone in debates has said how Weiss said Bills would destroy the solar system.
Would need confirmation that Kai somehow meant other universes. Alien X's feat is still the top feat in this thread. Remember; a tear splitting a universe apart does not come with adequate DC. The PokeGods? Yeah its shown in the anime that their 'true' forms can only be summoned via a special ritual. In that state they appear as cosmic entites, not the solid forms seen in the movie. Theres also a line saying how these are the real forms as opposed to the film, (In this form they instantly created a new universe) so theres that.