Goku vs Cyborg Frieza

Originally posted by KingD19
So some people are saying because King Cold didn't transform, he couldn't? He was obviously a sneak and as he knew he was stronger than his son, more than likely assumed he didn't need to transform to beat Trunks as long as he took his sword.

But there are 3 of the Planet Killer race. King Cold, Cooler, and Frieza. Frieza has 4 1/2 forms if you count Final Form 100%, Cooler has 5. Are people really assuming King Cold just can't transform at all, even though he looks nearly identical to Frieza Form 2 and both his sons have the capability?

But heck, I'm bored, so lets have some theoretical fun. 🙂

Mecha Frieza stated that he was more powerful than before--- and before said enhancements, his PL was 120,000,000. It was also stated that King Cold was more powerful than mecha Frieza. However, both of them were vastly inferior to SSJ Trunks, whose PL was stated to be the same as Goku's was on Namek, which puts him at 150,000,000. Thus, we know Cold's PL was above 120,000,000 but below 150,000,000. Lets say his PL was 140,000,000.

Now, Frieza's final form possessed about 120x more power than his first form. So if we use the same multiplier for King Cold, then that gives his theoretical final form a PL of 16,800,000,000! PLs that high wouldn't have been seen again until late in the Buu saga. Do you really think Cold was intended to be more powerful than the Androids? ASSJ Vegeta/Trunks? Perfect Cell? FPSSJ Goku/Gohan? SSJ2 Gohan? Super Perfect Cell (etc.)? I don't.

If the guy could have transformed into a more powerful form, he would have. But since he didn't, and no canon source states he could have, then we can only be left to assume that he, just like Frieza, was in his peak transformed state.

Originally posted by Galan007
I wish the Planet Trade Organization as a whole would have been expanded on more.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cooler isn't a canon manga character.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111126224916/dragonball/images/2/24/V2.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Frieza =/= King Cold. They are 2 completely different characters, you see. Just because they are of the same race, doesn't mean every facet of their respective powers must be equal by default (case in point: Goku and Vegeta.)

So really, adding transformations to KC that he was never shown or stated to be capable of using, is just silly. If he could have transformed into a more powerful form, the rule of deduction says he surely would have.

King Cold resembles nothing less than Freeza's second form.

But here is the thing. Freeza's original form, and presumably the form his species takes on, is that of his fourth form.

Why wouldn't his father have the same appearance?

It's a plothole, a minor one, but it is there.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Oh, that too. KC was the one supposedly behind it after all.

Despite this, there are at least official-stated power levels for the movie characters. Super Shredder Cooler's is 470,000,000, which puts him well above Frieza's 120,000,000. vin

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111126224916/dragonball/images/2/24/V2.jpg

Originally posted by NemeBro
Hurrr.

King Cold resembles nothing less than Freeza's second form.

But here is the thing. Freeza's original form, and presumably the form his species takes on, is that of his fourth form.

Why wouldn't his father have the same appearance?

It's a plothole, a minor one, but it is there.

Like I mentioned above: if we assume KC was capable of the same transformations as Frieza, and if we assume the power increase he received was proportionate to the increase Frieza received, then that puts his PL at nearly 17 BILLION in his 'final form'. That means he would have been several times more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan or Super Perfect Cell. Was he intended to be that powerful? No phucking way.

And heck, since Cooler keeps popping up for some reason: what if Cold was capable of transforming into the same 'super shredder' form as Cooler? Since that form was roughly 4x more powerful than Frieza's final form, if the same multiplier crossed over to Cold, then that'd give his 'super shredder' form a theoretical PL of 67,200,000,000--- which would make him more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, Super Buu, etc.

Speculations aside, I'd rather stick to what's canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Knowing Cooler's PL, doesn't make him more canon than any other non-canon movie villain. 😉

Ya, I do wish broly were canon, though. Hell, I wish the movies were canon in general.

what if Trunks didn't have his sword during his fight with Mecha Frieza and King Cold? i heard the sword Trunks wields is magical...

He'd have killed them just as easily. He just wouldn't have cut Frieza in half.

And he got the sword from Tapion.

Originally posted by Galan007
You may see it as a plot-hole, but I merely see it as King Cold not being able to transform into a more powerful form. Even the Daizenshuu, which gave a brief history of Cold, didn't so much as allude to him being capable of additional transformations. No canon material does.

Like I mentioned above: if we assume KC was capable of the same transformations as Frieza, and if we assume the power increase he received was proportionate to the increase Frieza received, then that puts his PL at nearly 17 BILLION in his 'final form'. That means he would have been several times more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan or Super Perfect Cell. Was he intended to be that powerful? No phucking way.

And heck, since Cooler keeps popping up for some reason: what if Cold was capable of transforming into the same 'super shredder' form as Cooler? Since that form was roughly 4x more powerful than Frieza's final form, if the same multiplier crossed over to Cold, then that'd give his 'super shredder' form a theoretical PL of 67,200,000,000--- which would make him more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, Super Buu, etc.

Speculations aside, I'd rather stick to what's canon.

Okay, you're not paying attention.

Freeza's fourth form wasn't something he created for himself. It is the form he was born with. It is his natural, his true form, not one created to make him more powerful. He created the lesser forms to restrain his power.

Why would King Cold then not be born with the same form as Freeza? They are the same species.

I'm not saying King Cold canonically has a fourth form like Freeza. He obviously doesn't, and he was not intended to be that powerful (And you're still using numbers for power levels you can't verify but hey). I'm saying the fact that he doesn't have one is a plothole.

Originally posted by Villelater
what if Trunks didn't have his sword during his fight with Mecha Frieza and King Cold? i heard the sword Trunks wields is magical...

Originally posted by NemeBro
Okay, you're not paying attention.

Freeza's fourth form wasn't something he created for himself. It is the form he was born with. It is his natural, his true form, not one created to make him more powerful. He created the lesser forms to restrain his power.

Why would King Cold then not be born with the same form as Freeza? They are the same species.

I'm not saying King Cold canonically has a fourth form like Freeza. He obviously doesn't, and he was not intended to be that powerful (And you're still using numbers for power levels you can't verify but hey). I'm saying the fact that he doesn't have one is a plothole.

We know for a fact that KC's PL was above 120,000,000, but below 150,000,000--- so giving him an estimated PL of 140,000,000(like I did) is perfectly fair, and moreover, logical. Having said that, if we assume that King Cold would have received the same power amp/multiplier as Frieza upon transforming(which, again, is perfectly logical), then that would give Cold's 'final form' a PL of nearly 17 billion--- ie. he'd be several times more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan and/or Super Perfect Cell. Clearly Cold wasn't intended to be anywhere near the level of a rookie SSJ, let alone a SSJ2, let alone much more powerful than a SSJ2.

So if you want to call it a plot-hole, I suppose that's fitting. Either way, the form we saw Cold in was clearly intended to be his 'peak' transformed state.

Originally posted by Galan007
I get what you're saying, but I don't know if you're understanding me.

We know for a fact that KC's PL was above 120,000,000, but below 150,000,000--- so giving him an estimated PL of 140,000,000(like I did) is perfectly fair, and moreover, logical. Having said that, if we assume that King Cold would have received the same power amp/multiplier as Frieza upon transforming(which, again, is perfectly logical), then that would give Cold's 'final form' a PL of nearly 17 billion--- ie. he'd be several times more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan and/or Super Perfect Cell. Clearly Cold wasn't intended to be anywhere near the level of a rookie SSJ, let alone a SSJ2, let alone much more powerful than a SSJ2.

So if you want to call it a plot-hole, I suppose that's fitting. Either way, the form we saw Cold in was clearly intended to be his 'peak' transformed state.

It could be that KC couldn't control that power from the start, tus is forced to exist in a reduced form state. After all, Frieza's 2nd form was stated to be at 1 million right, that is less than 1% of his total max output. If we take that the form we see KC in is about 0.8% of his total max power level... yeah. I doubt KC trains or fights anywhere near as much as Freeza (Nor Cooler for that matter if you want to compare that), and Freeza hardly trains anyways, he is more than satisfied with blowing away underlings with power levels no stronger than Raditz.

^ The Z fighters sensed that KC was actually more powerful than mecha Frieza--- hence the ridiculously high power approximations I listed above. Tbh, I just don't think there was any intention for KC to be able to access more powerful transformations. No canon source alludes to such, at least. /shrug

Freeza was born with it.

Logic dictates KC would likely be born with it.

The other forms were created by Freeza to suppress his power. Toriyama did not intend KC to be more powerful than he was portrayed, but logically, he would be due to the apparent nature of the race.

It is a plothole, lol.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Freeza was born with it.

Logic dictates KC would likely be born with it.

Either way, we both agree that Cold was in his peak form, and was using his peak power, when Trunks killed him. 👆

Maybe Freeza's true form has something to do with his mother's side, and not his father.

Frieza had to have gotten something from his mother, because his color scheme was nothing like Cold's.

😎

Chilled only has one form, Kuriza only has 2, Cooler had 5, Freeza 4. It does range in that family. lol

Hm, true. If you use ALL sources then there really is no consistency whatsoever.

Originally posted by Galan007
Only if we assume every member of their race is able to attain the same forms--- which, per canon, evidently isn't the case. Perhaps Frieza's 4th form is his 'true form', while Cold's 2nd form is his 'true form'..?

Either way, we both agree that Cold was in his peak form, and was using his peak power, when Trunks killed him. 👆

Hows about I suggest that although all the Icehjins/Frost Demons/whatever the hell Freeza's race is, are born into their 4th form, and all the forms lesser than this are restricted power forms simply due to them being far too destructive upon maturing? With the exeption of Cooler, they all seemed to have trouble with actual control over their emotions, nevermind their powers...

Id KC had such a high personal power, I can garuntee you he'd have even less control of himself tha Broly ever did, and if what Goku said to Freeza holds any weight, the race as a whole can only seem to handle so much of their own power.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hows about I suggest that although all the Icehjins/Frost Demons/whatever the hell Freeza's race is, are born into their 4th form, and all the forms lesser than this are restricted power forms simply due to them being far too destructive upon maturing? With the exeption of Cooler, they all seemed to have trouble with actual control over their emotions, nevermind their powers...

Id KC had such a high personal power, I can garuntee you he'd have even less control of himself tha Broly ever did, and if what Goku said to Freeza holds any weight, the race as a whole can only seem to handle so much of their own power.

That's pretty much what i thought